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misswales1986  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 02, 2018 12:58:58 PM(UTC)
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My boyfriend is PCSing to Ramstein next week for 3 years. We are not married and nor do we plan on getting married, however; I am thinking about moving to Germany next year.
I am a dual US/UK citizen so I have an EU passport that allows me to enter Germany and work without the need for a visa (until the UK inevitably leaves the UK in March next year).
I currently live in the USA and would be moving from here. I have been trolling the USAJOBS site looking at job opportunities (just simple admin/civilian positions with the AF and Army as I am currently working on my degree) A lot of the postings seem to have a fine print about ordinarily resident status.

U.S. citizens overseas under ordinarily resident status are not eligible for appointment under the Status of Forces Agreement. In NATO countries, employment under U.S. conditions is restricted by the NATO SOFA to individuals who are nationals of a NATO country. These individuals may not be employed under U.S. employment conditions in the country of their citizenship.

So here is my question if I entered Germany and lived there on my EU passport and thus not requiring a Visa, can I then apply for a job on base/through the federal govt under my US citizenship? and what exactly is ordinarily resident status? Would I be classed under that? Or does it mean if I am a citizen of Germany I am not eligible? I think I need it dumbed down because I'm just not getting it.

Edited by user Thursday, August 02, 2018 1:20:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

JDSIII  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 02, 2018 10:44:26 PM(UTC)
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You can apply to work on base as an US Citizen, the rules vary depending upon the Country. Below is from the Army Civilian Human Resources Europe site.

Ordinarily Resident: A person with ordinarily resident status is a U.S. citizen to whom one of the following applies:
1. Before 1 January 2005, the person obtained a work permit or worked in the local job market without NATO Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) status while residing in the host country.

2.After 1 January 2005, the person obtained a residence permit and engaged in a business activity or was employed in the local job market while residing in the host country. This includes a person who has requested a residence permit for working purposes or to pursue gainful employment.

3.The person resided in the host country for the time shown below without status as a member of the U.S. Forces or civilian component as defined by the NATO SOFA:

a.In Belgium: 90 days.

b.In Germany: 1 year.

c.In Italy: 1 year. If a person has physically resided in Italy for less than 1 year without affiliation with the U.S. Forces, he or she is ordinarily resident if either of the following is true:

i.The person registered as a residente in the municipal register (Ufficio Anagrafe) of the town where residing.

ii.The person has taken other affirmative steps to avail his self or her self of permanent resident benefits.

d.In the Netherlands: 24 hours. Military members who apply for a position before separation and are hired within 90 days after separation are exempt from the 24-hour restriction.

e.In the United Kingdom: 1 year.


frankgonzalez  
#3 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 2:54:02 AM(UTC)
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I will add that holding two passports may screen you out on the suitability aspect of federal hires for any job that requires you to be a US citizen. It implies you do not hold allegiance to the US.

I say this as someone with both a British birth certificate and a US Citizen birth overseas certificate from the US embassy in England due to being born on RAF South Ruislip in Middlesex. I have never held a British passport, yet simply having that location of birth required a few more questions (to include "would you renounce your citizenship to Britain if required?").

So...your idea of traveling to Germany via the British passport and getting a job using your US one...is rife for issues.

You would be better off applying as if you were a local national vs US citizen. Or just get a job in the local area. And, the fact you are using a non-US passport should trigger your boyfriend to report to his security officer his connections to a foreign national...which could impact his clearance.
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
misswales1986  
#4 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 7:35:17 AM(UTC)
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Per # 2. I am an ordinarily resident if I request a resident permit for work purposes....So i would be exempt from these jobs due to this...That's the part I'm not understanding..If I want to live and work there I cannot obtain a residence permit for work purposes? Then I wouldn't be eligible to be work in the first place...(if i was to use my US passport instead of my UK one)



Originally Posted by: JDSIII Go to Quoted Post
You can apply to work on base as an US Citizen, the rules vary depending upon the Country. Below is from the Army Civilian Human Resources Europe site.

Ordinarily Resident: A person with ordinarily resident status is a U.S. citizen to whom one of the following applies:
1. Before 1 January 2005, the person obtained a work permit or worked in the local job market without NATO Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) status while residing in the host country.

2.After 1 January 2005, the person obtained a residence permit and engaged in a business activity or was employed in the local job market while residing in the host country. This includes a person who has requested a residence permit for working purposes or to pursue gainful employment.

3.The person resided in the host country for the time shown below without status as a member of the U.S. Forces or civilian component as defined by the NATO SOFA:

a.In Belgium: 90 days.

b.In Germany: 1 year.

c.In Italy: 1 year. If a person has physically resided in Italy for less than 1 year without affiliation with the U.S. Forces, he or she is ordinarily resident if either of the following is true:

i.The person registered as a residente in the municipal register (Ufficio Anagrafe) of the town where residing.

ii.The person has taken other affirmative steps to avail his self or her self of permanent resident benefits.

d.In the Netherlands: 24 hours. Military members who apply for a position before separation and are hired within 90 days after separation are exempt from the 24-hour restriction.

e.In the United Kingdom: 1 year.




misswales1986  
#5 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 7:40:38 AM(UTC)
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I hold a British passport as i was born and raised in the UK, i moved to the US in 2007 when i was 20. I obtained a US passport last year. Therefore I am not a foreign national I am a US citizen regardless of what passport i travel on...the United States follows the “master nationality” rule, which basically says that if you’re a US citizen, then the US will see you only as a US citizen and will not afford you any privilege that you might otherwise be entitled to (under, perhaps, a treaty to which the US is a contracting party) as a citizen of some other country. Furthermore, a US citizen may not, for example, seek to enter the United States as if they were an alien, even if they would otherwise be permitted to do so on the basis of some other citizenship they might hold. They must enter the United States as a US citizen. In this sense, the United States does not “recognize” dual citizenship. (There are some countries that do formally recognize at least some forms of dual citizenship, giving special allowances or other considerations to those with dual citizenship that do not extend to those who have only one citizenship.)

However, the United States does not require naturalizing citizens to actually and effectively renounce any other citizenships they have. While the US oath states that the naturalizing citizen “renounce[s] and abjure[s] all allegiance and fidelity” to any other country, “allegiance and fidelity” is not the same as “citizenship” or “nationality”. Unless the law of the country in which the naturalizing individual has a citizenship states that the US oath is sufficient to renounce their citizenship claim in that country, swearing that oath has no effect on that citizenship. And US law has no power to determine whether or not someone is a citizen in a country other than the United States. Whether or not the oath is effective in terminating any foreign citizenship the swearer might hold, he or she nonetheless becomes a US citizen upon its completion.

The jobs I am applying for do not require security clearance just a simple background check, I think if I was applying for something that requires a clearance this might be more of an issue. Of course if necessary I would renounce my UK citizenship, but it was never necessary just more paperwork.


Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
I will add that holding two passports may screen you out on the suitability aspect of federal hires for any job that requires you to be a US citizen. It implies you do not hold allegiance to the US.

I say this as someone with both a British birth certificate and a US Citizen birth overseas certificate from the US embassy in England due to being born on RAF South Ruislip in Middlesex. I have never held a British passport, yet simply having that location of birth required a few more questions (to include "would you renounce your citizenship to Britain if required?").

So...your idea of traveling to Germany via the British passport and getting a job using your US one...is rife for issues.

You would be better off applying as if you were a local national vs US citizen. Or just get a job in the local area. And, the fact you are using a non-US passport should trigger your boyfriend to report to his security officer his connections to a foreign national...which could impact his clearance.


frankgonzalez  
#6 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 8:32:44 AM(UTC)
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let's see...you became a US citizen yet still wish to travel on a foreign passport, while being permitted to work on a US military installation?

Clearance and suitability are two different things. AND, maintaining a foreign passport (while legal) still complicates things and can render you unsuitable for US government employment.

If the 1986 in your nom-de-plume is your birth year, I have been dealing with this issue since before you were born (left England in Feb 1986 to begin my military career). I was born in the UK (father US military, mother English), over the next few years lived both in the US an UK due to my father being in the military. He retired in 1975 from the military, and took a job with a defense contractor in the UK...so from 75-Feb 86 I lived in the UK (this includes going to English primary and secondary schools, getting my O levels, etc). My father held a TS clearance (with SCI, etc) for his civilian job and yet when I got my clearance, it took a few interviews due to my holding a foreign birth certificate (not even a passport..a certificate! Despite my birth being registered with the US embassy a few days later by the US military hospital! I have been a US citizen since birth).

Allegiance questions are easier to answer for me...I never held any other passport but a US one, never claimed any other citizenship despite being eligible to.

You, in contrast, have held a foreign passport until last year. And are planning to continue to use it while seeking employment on a US military base. Can you not see the potential issues the security folks will have? It may go fine...until it doesn't...and the impact on your boyfriend could be a career killer if he failed to report a close, continuing relationship with a foreign national (something you can be described as when you decide to revert back to using a foreign passport).
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
FS0201  
#7 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 9:08:55 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: misswales1986 Go to Quoted Post
Therefore I am not a foreign national I am a US citizen regardless of what passport i travel on...


I am not an expert on security/suitability issues; however, I would recommend taking heed to Frank’s caution. I have held Federal positions in a number of agencies (DoD and non), with varying levels of clearance and/or access required. The fact that my wife and children are dual citizens🇺🇸 🇨🇦 has been questioned multiple times. I imagine all investigators have quirks, but there are issues that they may find most relevant. I had one investigator who seemed obsessed with a bank account that I had in Canada (<$250).
The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
misswales1986  
#8 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 9:40:21 AM(UTC)
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I understand what you are saying. The only reason I would consider staying under my EU citizen status is if I enter Germany on my US passport there are just a few more hoops to jump through, I have to prove that I can support myself financially for the duration of my stay (without employment), which isnt a probekm but i dont want to blow through my savings if that makes sense, then I have to obtain a resident visa, which will require almost fluent German of which I am nowhere near.

Per the US embassy website, it states that all U.S. citizens, even dual nationals, must enter and depart the United States on U.S. passports, however, travel.state.gov states the following - U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport to travel to or from a country other than the United States is not inconsistent with U.S. law.

So it appears I am well within my rights to leave the US on my US passport and then enter the EU on my British passport, and this does not class me as a foreign national. I left the states on my US passport when I return to the UK to visit. Four times a year I use my U.S passport to leave the states, British passport to get into the U.K and my U.S one to leave and get back into the states, I am not a foreign national to the US then so why would i in Germany working as a US citizen. I'm just trying to look at both sides, I completely understand the security issues and everything you are saying, however, we are looking at a British Citizen who naturalized in the US recently after a thorough background check in both the US and UK and worldwide from what I have been told. I have no criminal background, I don't owe taxes, I go to school and I have worked in the same job for 6 years surely they look at your background to determine if you are a security risk.

Additionally, I will not be living with my boyfriend I will be renting my own apartment in a nearby village/town, he didn't have to declare we were dating before and i travel on my UK passport so why would he now?

Most jobs i am applying for say they do not require a background check or security clearance, some say,

"Public Trust

Public Trust is a type of background investigation, but it is not a security clearance. Depending on the job, you must complete either the Standard Form 85 (SF85) or 85P (SF85P) questionnaire
frankgonzalez  
#9 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 11:03:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: misswales1986 Go to Quoted Post
I understand what you are saying. The only reason I would consider staying under my EU citizen status is if I enter Germany on my US passport there are just a few more hoops to jump through, I have to prove that I can support myself financially for the duration of my stay (without employment), which isnt a probekm but i dont want to blow through my savings if that makes sense, then I have to obtain a resident visa, which will require almost fluent German of which I am nowhere near.

Per the US embassy website, it states that all U.S. citizens, even dual nationals, must enter and depart the United States on U.S. passports, however, travel.state.gov states the following - U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport to travel to or from a country other than the United States is not inconsistent with U.S. law.

So it appears I am well within my rights to leave the US on my US passport and then enter the EU on my British passport, and this does not class me as a foreign national. I left the states on my US passport when I return to the UK to visit. Four times a year I use my U.S passport to leave the states, British passport to get into the U.K and my U.S one to leave and get back into the states, I am not a foreign national to the US then so why would i in Germany working as a US citizen. I'm just trying to look at both sides, I completely understand the security issues and everything you are saying, however, we are looking at a British Citizen who naturalized in the US recently after a thorough background check in both the US and UK and worldwide from what I have been told. I have no criminal background, I don't owe taxes, I go to school and I have worked in the same job for 6 years surely they look at your background to determine if you are a security risk.

Additionally, I will not be living with my boyfriend I will be renting my own apartment in a nearby village/town, he didn't have to declare we were dating before and i travel on my UK passport so why would he now?

Most jobs i am applying for say they do not require a background check or security clearance, some say,

"Public Trust

Public Trust is a type of background investigation, but it is not a security clearance. Depending on the job, you must complete either the Standard Form 85 (SF85) or 85P (SF85P) questionnaire
If the relationship was serious (as in more than a couple of dates) prior to you becoming a US citizen, then he should have report such a relationship at that time- even if you were not or are not living together. It is now moved up a notch...you are following him to another country. That would be great evidence of a close relationship even if you don't live together.

And just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it won't cause issues. Once you obtained a US passport, you could enter the UK on it easily enough and have no need to use a British passport. My mother was naturalized a decade or so ago once my parents moved back to the US when my father retired. She has travelled several times back to England on her US passport with no issue. Again, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it.

So...why not apply to jobs in Germany from the US? As a US citizen. Avoid the issues you will create. If you are living in Germany as a EU citizen (for now...what is your plan B for Brexit?), how do you expect to apply for jobs as a US citizen on a US military base? The two contradict each other...and create visa/residency issues and several tax headaches (you do know you have to pay US taxes while working outside the US regardless of where the income originates?).

And ALL jobs on a military base require a background check. The only difference is how in-depth the check is. Public trust isn't very deep...but a when you are asked for how you are able to work in Germany without a visa...then the British passport comes up...and now the issues begin. And from an HR standpoint...probably moving on to the next qualified person. If you are hired from the US, then Uncle Sam gets you the visa and you are covered under the SOFA agreements. Try to get hired locally....well...beyond the issues I've already described, you are also competing with military spouses who have preference for the openings that exist for US citizens only.

Edited by user Friday, August 03, 2018 11:07:40 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
misswales1986  
#10 Posted : Friday, August 03, 2018 11:28:13 AM(UTC)
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We were not dating before I obtained my citizenship. Regardless, I didn't realize that military personnel had to report that they are in a relationship is this even if it's with another US citizen?

I am applying for some jobs and I have spoken to HR with NAF and they have advised me I can apply for most of the positions as a Citizen or Non-citizen. Unfortunately most the positions are for the local commuting area and therefore cannot apply until I am there.

The Uk leaves the EU on March 29 next year, however, there will be an implementation period until December 2020. Any Uk citizens that move to the EU during this time will apparently still have the same rights until Dec 2020, what will happen after that becomes a little cloudy, it would likely require me to obtain a resident permit...who knows. If I moved prior to 3/29/19 I would be grandfathered in, but still a little cloudy to the exact way it will work post-Brexit. If it became too much of an issue I would go back to the UK and live and work until his orders are up in August 2021, I would then accompany him back to the states to his next station.

I enter the UK on my British passport as getting through immigration is much easier and a lot quicker, when I last visited with my ex-husband I went through the EU border, I was through in 5 minutes, it took him over 3 hours to enter on his U.S passport. Although he was told after the fact he could have come through with me as we were married.
frankgonzalez  
#11 Posted : Monday, August 06, 2018 4:16:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: misswales1986 Go to Quoted Post
We were not dating before I obtained my citizenship. Regardless, I didn't realize that military personnel had to report that they are in a relationship is this even if it's with another US citizen?

I am applying for some jobs and I have spoken to HR with NAF and they have advised me I can apply for most of the positions as a Citizen or Non-citizen. Unfortunately most the positions are for the local commuting area and therefore cannot apply until I am there.

The Uk leaves the EU on March 29 next year, however, there will be an implementation period until December 2020. Any Uk citizens that move to the EU during this time will apparently still have the same rights until Dec 2020, what will happen after that becomes a little cloudy, it would likely require me to obtain a resident permit...who knows. If I moved prior to 3/29/19 I would be grandfathered in, but still a little cloudy to the exact way it will work post-Brexit. If it became too much of an issue I would go back to the UK and live and work until his orders are up in August 2021, I would then accompany him back to the states to his next station.

I enter the UK on my British passport as getting through immigration is much easier and a lot quicker, when I last visited with my ex-husband I went through the EU border, I was through in 5 minutes, it took him over 3 hours to enter on his U.S passport. Although he was told after the fact he could have come through with me as we were married.
For a relationship with a US citizen, military and civilians with a security clearance, reporting isn't needed *unless* there are issues that may have an impact. ie. The person I am in a relationship with is a dual citizen and frequently travels to other locations on the non-US passport or they are a convicted felon or....well, there are plenty of circumstances that should be reported, and if they aren't reported at the time, they will come up during the periodic investigation...and then raise a few more questions such as "Why did you not report this earlier?"

If the relationship is serious, just get married and eliminate the issue. If it isn't, why move to Europe (Germany or the UK) while he is assigned there. And if you enter the UK on a british passport and begin working there as a British national...well, you have pretty much shown your lack of allegiance to the US (and you have to be aware of the the fact you need to file US taxes on all money earned outside the US. Failure to do so can be a major problem. The IRS doesn't play!)

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
misswales1986  
#12 Posted : Monday, August 06, 2018 9:28:03 AM(UTC)
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Yeah, I know all about the IRS my best friend is an auditor for them, she has advised me on it.

I don't find it to be a lack of allegiance to the US at all, people move and work/live in other countries all the time. How I enter either of the countries I am a citizen of (what passport I use) is in no way a lack of allegiance, it's more a convenience thing (which will be quicker and easier). If it were a lack of allegiance and so highly frowned upon then the US would not allow for dual citizenship and place it on their official government sites stating it is ok to do so.

Marriage is not an option for me nor him, I have been married before and I'm just not willing to get married again anytime soon neither is he...especially just for the necessity.

I've wanted to move (from the area I live in for a while), it would be nice to be closer to my elderly grandma and aging parents for a few years, I've been gone nearly 13 years. Also, I can continue school in Germany at a public university for free (if I can get my German up to speed) and really just the experience of living somewhere else, I won't have another chance..

It's not just driven by the relationship. The US is my home, I love it here and I will always have a residence here (i don't plan on selling my home), but if I have the chance to experience different cultures and travel/work/study in a different country for a few years then why pass that chance up?
frankgonzalez  
#13 Posted : Monday, August 06, 2018 10:06:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: misswales1986 Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, I know all about the IRS my best friend is an auditor for them, she has advised me on it.

I don't find it to be a lack of allegiance to the US at all, people move and work/live in other countries all the time. How I enter either of the countries I am a citizen of (what passport I use) is in no way a lack of allegiance, it's more a convenience thing (which will be quicker and easier). If it were a lack of allegiance and so highly frowned upon then the US would not allow for dual citizenship and place it on their official government sites stating it is ok to do so.

Marriage is not an option for me nor him, I have been married before and I'm just not willing to get married again anytime soon neither is he...especially just for the necessity.

I've wanted to move (from the area I live in for a while), it would be nice to be closer to my elderly grandma and aging parents for a few years, I've been gone nearly 13 years. Also, I can continue school in Germany at a public university for free (if I can get my German up to speed) and really just the experience of living somewhere else, I won't have another chance..

It's not just driven by the relationship. The US is my home, I love it here and I will always have a residence here (i don't plan on selling my home), but if I have the chance to experience different cultures and travel/work/study in a different country for a few years then why pass that chance up?
Well...the US government does not say it is OK, only that it is not illegal per se. But they also talk of the issues:
From https://careers.state.gov/wp-con.../02/Dual-Citizenship.pdf with regard to clearances (and you give reasons mentioned to not give a clearance).
Quote:
4. Example D. A subject is a naturalized U.S. citizen and dual national who is willing to relinquish his foreign passport but is not/not willing to renounce foreign citizenship of birth. The subject explains that the reason for this position Is: (1) so that children can continue to enjoy free foreign education benefits; (2) for possible future employment opportunities; and (3) for foreign inheritance purposes. DS would not be able to clearly determine the individual's preference for the United States, sufficient to grant a security clearance.


http://www.latimes.com/opinion/...ship-20141228-story.html Opinion piece

From https://travel.state.gov/content...ty/Dual-Nationality.html
Quote:
Dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries, and either country has the right to enforce its laws. It is important to note the problems attendant to dual nationality. Claims of other countries upon U.S. dual-nationals often place them in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the laws of the other. In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts of the U.S. Government to provide consular protection to them when they are abroad, especially when they are in the country of their second nationality.


And so on. Plenty of people travel and work around the world...but when you do so on more than one passport, it does raise allegiance issues. And plenty do it on only one passport. My father woked in the UK after he retired from the US military and only had a US passport. He lined up a job which would sponsor him prior to moving.

Obviously, you are going to do what yo have already decided to do. But hopefully you are aware now of the issues those actions may have.
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
misswales1986  
#14 Posted : Monday, August 06, 2018 10:08:15 AM(UTC)
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I am! I appreciate your input! Now I have extra information to move forward with!!
Endless Summer  
#15 Posted : Monday, August 06, 2018 12:03:15 PM(UTC)
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I think the best advice I could offer is to have your boyfriend look into this on his end. He has resources available to him to lead him through these questions. You're asking the random internet strangers when he has better options.
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