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Kc-cca  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 7:43:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person
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RodOrRob on 7/17/2019(UTC)
PSEtoPTF  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 3:55:45 PM(UTC)
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I know that Post Office offers a signature on file for PO Box customers
“The Postal ServiceTM is offering Signature on File for PO Box customers at this Post OfficeTM location. With this service, you can place your Signature on File with the Postal Service, which eliminates the need to wait in line to sign for a package. When you sign up for Signature on File, you authorize the Postal Service to use this signature whenever the following signature-required mail arrives at your PO Box:
 Priority Mail Express®
 Insured Mail over $500 (including Electronic Return Receipt)
 Signature ConfirmationTM
We will place this mail in your PO Box or in a secure parcel locker for you to pick up at your convenience.”
I think maybe there is something like that for the carriers, too?
Also, I don’t think that the customer can see who sign the package or certified letter unless they have a return receipt (electronic return receipt in particular) to be able actually see the signature. Now, if you track it internally the clerks (or supervisors) can actually see the signature even when there is no return receipt. You can print that and give it to the customer, but if you track it at usps.com you won’t see a signature I believe, unless there is an extra service.
RodOrRob  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 4:00:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


YES!

It's pretty simple...

The customer that mailed an item wants to get a signature... 1 that was signed for by someone present at the delivery address, or the exact person if it's restricted delivery. They aren't paying for an employee to sign, or for us to leave it without getting a proper signature, or else they wouldn't send it(and pay extra) that way.

The ONLY way the USPS can assure that the signature is valid and legit is to get 1 signed IN PERSON at time of delivery. Otherwise we are not fulfilling the service option the customer paid for.
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GWPDA on 7/17/2019(UTC)
RodOrRob  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 4:02:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PSEtoPTF Go to Quoted Post
I know that Post Office offers a signature on file for PO Box customers
“The Postal ServiceTM is offering Signature on File for PO Box customers at this Post OfficeTM location. With this service, you can place your Signature on File with the Postal Service, which eliminates the need to wait in line to sign for a package. When you sign up for Signature on File, you authorize the Postal Service to use this signature whenever the following signature-required mail arrives at your PO Box:
 Priority Mail Express®
 Insured Mail over $500 (including Electronic Return Receipt)
 Signature ConfirmationTM
We will place this mail in your PO Box or in a secure parcel locker for you to pick up at your convenience.”
I think maybe there is something like that for the carriers, too?
Also, I don’t think that the customer can see who sign the package or certified letter unless they have a return receipt (electronic return receipt in particular) to be able actually see the signature. Now, if you track it internally the clerks (or supervisors) can actually see the signature even when there is no return receipt. You can print that and give it to the customer, but if you track it at usps.com you won’t see a signature I believe, unless there is an extra service.

No, there is NOT that option for carriers.
colty31  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 5:41:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


But on the 3849 it says you can sign the back and have the item re-delivered. So after the customer has signed the back, we can then deliver the parcel with the signed 3849 the next day.
NEmailman  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 5:44:53 PM(UTC)
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Once I had a customer sign the scanner and I gave them the certified letter. They closed their door. Their signature disappeared on the scanner before I could enter it. So I knocked on the door so they could sign it again. They would not answer their door. The only thing I could think of to do was to write what happened in the signature space and print my initials. Now I don't give them the letter until the transaction is complete.
RodOrRob  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:37:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: colty31 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


But on the 3849 it says you can sign the back and have the item re-delivered. So after the customer has signed the back, we can then deliver the parcel with the signed 3849 the next day.


Incorrect,
Redelivery does not mean leave it..it means redeliver, (ie.make another attempt), so we can get your signature.

You must be present to sign. Signing to have us bring it back out, is not a valid signature ...because we have no idea whose signature is on the 3849.
RodOrRob  
#28 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:53:36 PM(UTC)
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This is the newest of the signature services we offer...compared to certified or other services requiring a signature, it is pretty clear a signature is only valid when signed in person...

https://faq.usps.com/s/a...s-Signature-Confirmation

What will I receive with Signature Confirmation™ Service?

You will be provided the following information:

Signature and name of the recipient
Date, time and location of the delivery
Signature Confirmation™ requires that the recipient (or a responsible person at the residence) be present to sign for the item.

Nothing has changed after the re-design of the 3849, we still need to check, must be present if a signature is required...
STOP making up rules allowing us to leave items if someone presigns a 3849.
I've even read responses saying if a certified doesn't have the 3811 (green card) we can leave it if the customer leaves a presigned 3849..wrong again.

THE ONLY thing requiring a signature we can leave...Waiver of signature on an Express mail piece.


NEmailman  
#29 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 7:20:35 PM(UTC)
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"Nothing has changed after the re-design of the 3849. Wrong. You do not have to write the item number on it.
RodOrRob  
#30 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 7:22:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: NEmailman Go to Quoted Post
"Nothing has changed after the re-design of the 3849. Wrong. You do not have to write the item number on it.


Ya got me!...Obviously, that's true, but irrelevant regarding this thread.
Seadogg  
#31 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 8:18:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RodOrRob Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: colty31 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


But on the 3849 it says you can sign the back and have the item re-delivered. So after the customer has signed the back, we can then deliver the parcel with the signed 3849 the next day.


Incorrect,
Redelivery does not mean leave it..it means redeliver, (ie.make another attempt), so we can get your signature.

You must be present to sign. Signing to have us bring it back out, is not a valid signature ...because we have no idea whose signature is on the 3849.


I agree. Too bad none of my supervisors do - I've asked at least a dozen over the years and without exception they say to leave the item. It may be that some customers complain that they work/don't have a car and can't be home or come pick it up.
Smearski  
#32 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 9:33:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


Wrong. If you got the signed 3849, you scan it, it shows up on the scanner screen, all legit like, you press enter, leave the package there and walk away. Simple. Don’t make your job harder than it needs to be.
Smearski  
#33 Posted : Wednesday, July 17, 2019 9:39:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: NEmailman Go to Quoted Post
"Nothing has changed after the re-design of the 3849. Wrong. You do not have to write the item number on it.


Our postmaster has a standup a few months back and told us to write the item number on the new 3849s. Some carriers started doing it, others said, f**k it, and didn’t start doing it.
RodOrRob  
#34 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:51:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smearski Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


Wrong. If you got the signed 3849, you scan it, it shows up on the scanner screen, all legit like, you press enter, leave the package there and walk away. Simple. Don’t make your job harder than it needs to be.


It's not legit, anyone could have signed it and you have no idea who. Prove that the correct customer signed it....you can't.

Making the job harder?... hardly. It's called doing the job correctly, customer service, and caring about it. Something management, and obviously YOU don't do.

Don't be that guy... you know, the guy who thinks he's helping someone else by taking a shortcut. You're only helping management.
timing  
#35 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 5:30:28 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RodOrRob Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smearski Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


Wrong. If you got the signed 3849, you scan it, it shows up on the scanner screen, all legit like, you press enter, leave the package there and walk away. Simple. Don’t make your job harder than it needs to be.


It's not legit, anyone could have signed it and you have no idea who. Prove that the correct customer signed it....you can't.



What if someone signs the 3849 and places it back into their locked mailbox, isn't that proof enough that a person or "authorized agent" signed it... I mean, they obviously have a key to the mailbox.

I would never require a signature in person after that, (for a basic signature confirmation or certified with no return receipt etc.) and it's also avoiding a possible dog attack by not needing to go to the door a 2nd time.

Current FTR carrier - former TE clerk, PTF carrier, Casual clerk, PTF/FTR clerk, PTF/FTR mailhandler, 4 probations
RodOrRob  
#36 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 12:27:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: timing Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RodOrRob Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Smearski Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Kc-cca Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: valeriep Go to Quoted Post
How about if the customer signs the 3849 Form and authorizes the carrier to scan it and leave the package /certified mail in the mailbox? I have had one customer sign the 3849 and tell me that I can use it anytime in the future if there is a need. Is that allowed? Technically it's the customers signature. I've asked a few people in the office and they aren't sure.


A signed 3849 isn't enough to leave a package that needs a signature. It must be in person


Wrong. If you got the signed 3849, you scan it, it shows up on the scanner screen, all legit like, you press enter, leave the package there and walk away. Simple. Don’t make your job harder than it needs to be.


It's not legit, anyone could have signed it and you have no idea who. Prove that the correct customer signed it....you can't.



What if someone signs the 3849 and places it back into their locked mailbox, isn't that proof enough that a person or "authorized agent" signed it... I mean, they obviously have a key to the mailbox.

I would never require a signature in person after that, (for a basic signature confirmation or certified with no return receipt etc.) and it's also avoiding a possible dog attack by not needing to go to the door a 2nd time.



And so does their abusive EX...who wants to get that item, and...now what?

We can create what-ifs all day long...

How about this what if...
What if we just followed the proper procedure and get a signature in person, then we have no worries.

Why create possibilities that causes the USPS (along with the carrier) to be in the wrong when the sender asked for the recipients signature...do it properly, then there is never a doubt who signed. Plus, 1 less thing to get yelled at over.

I know, that's impossible to follow rules set forth by the employer, right?...it only takes time, time we ARE ON THE CLOCK for.

As I was told by a veteran carrier 30 years ago when I started...
"Do it their way kid, and you'll make more money."
NEmailman  
#37 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:51:30 PM(UTC)
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Next to the QR code it states: "For redelivery, scan the QR code or go to usps.com/redelivery and enter the barcode number shown below." So there really is no need to write the item number on the 3849. (Besides, there is no space provided to write the number on it.)
MPE2009  
#38 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 4:12:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: NEmailman Go to Quoted Post
Next to the QR code it states: "For redelivery, scan the QR code or go to usps.com/redelivery and enter the barcode number shown below." So there really is no need to write the item number on the 3849. (Besides, there is no space provided to write the number on it.)


I agree. However if you are instructed to write the number on it by local management, you have to do it or face disciplinary action. You don't have the option to ignore instructions you don't like. You can grieve them instead.
RuralMunky  
#39 Posted : Thursday, July 18, 2019 5:49:45 PM(UTC)
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PO-610
1-2 Operational Process

The recipient (or agent) must be present to accept a signature item. If the recipient (or agent) is not available to sign for the item, the delivery employee must leave a notice. The delivery employee must check the box on the front of the PS Form 3849 that states, “If checked, you or your agent must be present at the time of delivery to sign for item,” and must record the appropriate scan event. A signed PS Form 3849 left by a customer does not constitute a valid signature for delivery. Exceptions for signature capture are allowed only for items that are endorsed with a Waiver of Signature.
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RodOrRob on 7/18/2019(UTC)
MPE2009  
#40 Posted : Friday, July 19, 2019 6:32:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: 122intheshade Go to Quoted Post
In my office last week, several carriers were stopped on the way out the door, and each had a brief meeting with a supervisor.
The subject was "forged signatures".

Each carrier was shown a complaint, presumably by a customer, the subject being that something was "delivered" (not stolen) with an unauthorized or unrecognized signature. Locations were GPS'd, signatures off the scanner printed on a paper.

The implication was that carriers, in the interest of expediency, signed the scanner themselves. As far as I know, none signed the form "admitting" to this.

So, the question is, how do these things usually resolve themselves? This is the first time I've seen something like this. Granted, I've only worked as a carrier since 2011. Does this mean the practice is so rampant that management finally decided to crack down? Or that some poor schnook signed a supervisor's (or higher-up) name to a cert or registered?

And what eventually happens to the carriers? Run-of-the-mill LOW? Termination? Something in between? I'm totally ignorant on this one, so I'm curious how other offices have dealt with it.


I think we've wandered a bit off the OP's original question. I know I did. The question is whether or not management can prove whether or not you received a signature at that address and at what time. And unless the customer has a camera set up to prove that you did not hand him the slip to sign, there's no basis for discipline unless you admit guilt. There are of course a few other scenarios, but it all boils down to management MUST prove your "misdeed" unless you simply admit to it. I'm also a decade off the street, but we didn't always scan 3949 or other barcodes necessarily at the time of delivery. Sometimes you'd scan it two blocks away as you were heading to the delivery point if it didn't require a signature or you knew they'd be there to sign. So GPS coordinates are only indicative of somebody violating a rule, they are not absolute proof unless you were specifically instructed to scan in front of the customer or at the delivery point. And last I heard, the scanners are not 100% accurate anyway. That's on management to prove that the GPS coordinate is accurate.
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