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jazzyeng  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:27:00 AM(UTC)
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I worked for the VA an I received a letter for termination while out under Doctor care . Is there a policy that address this issue . I was coming up on my 1 year anniversary the next week Monday. But as i read my last LES statement I see my days for leave where never approved . So I'm thinking they left my leave dates as pending so they could process my termination . Sad part is I was on SL for a MH issue my VA doctor took me out of work for. I have contacted EEOC . But, was trying to get other knowledge of such matters.
frankgonzalez  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:43:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
I worked for the VA an I received a letter for termination while out under Doctor care . Is there a policy that address this issue . I was coming up on my 1 year anniversary the next week Monday. But as i read my last LES statement I see my days for leave where never approved . So I'm thinking they left my leave dates as pending so they could process my termination . Sad part is I was on SL for a MH issue my VA doctor took me out of work for. I have contacted EEOC . But, was trying to get other knowledge of such matters.
Were you on Probation? That can make the difference in any advice I (or others) may give.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
jazzyeng  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:57:06 AM(UTC)
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Yes It was during my probation period . I also like to add I was terminated by a total different HR in a totally different health care system . My local HR didn't know anything about it.

Edited by user Tuesday, November 17, 2020 10:05:18 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2020 10:50:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
Yes It was during my probation period . I also like to add I was terminated by a total different HR in a totally different health care system . My local HR didn't know anything about it.
Ok...looks like they followed the letter to terminate prior to the end your probation to decrease your appeal options. No idea with regard to the HR office issue (maybe they used the other office to ensure it was done cleanly...no idea about VA internal processes). They may have held the leave as they already knew they were going to terminate your employment. Your supervisor would have signed off on it (or someone in the supervisory chain). If not...then there may be an issue on the VA side. HR cannot do this on their own.

The EEOC is NOT the place you need to file your complaint. You need to contact the VA Office of Resolution Management, Diversity and Inclusion (https://www.va.gov/ORMDI/EEOcomplaint.asp) to initiate the informal process no later than 45 calendar days from the day you were terminated.

Just because you were on leave for a medical issue doesn't make it discrimination. YOU have the burden of proof of discrimination. What you posted here will get you into the office for the informal process (but pretty much anything will!), but will not get you very far in the formal side.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
jazzyeng  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, November 17, 2020 12:54:24 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the replay . Another note they never approved my leave until after i was terminated . So they purposely held it in a pending status while they set the wheels in motion. They were trying to terminate me the day after I returned. But they miscounted the 10 days of Doctors care . Therefore I was terminated while on doctor's care from my Veteran administration doctor. I worked for the Durham VA heath care system but was terminated by the Asheville Va health care system .
frankgonzalez  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2020 4:10:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the replay . Another note they never approved my leave until after i was terminated . So they purposely held it in a pending status while they set the wheels in motion. They were trying to terminate me the day after I returned. But they miscounted the 10 days of Doctors care . Therefore I was terminated while on doctor's care from my Veteran administration doctor. I worked for the Durham VA heath care system but was terminated by the Asheville Va health care system .
Again...they did it by the book (timing-wise) to terminate you during your probation period. If they had allowed you to go past the year mark, then you would have had MSPB appeal rights. Removing you prior to that point is the goal...the fact they were originally going to do it when you got back from your leave, but miscalculated the 52 week mark, then doing it when they did was the correct way to do it. It sucks, I know...but did your boss provide any indication you were not being successful in your job? Not required to as you are on probation, but it is good management principle to do so (if you got past the probation period, then you would have had to be put on a Demonstration Period, aka PIP, and given an opportunity to meet standards or would have had a good MSPB appeal).

Your supervisor is the one who terminated you, not HR. HR simply does the paperwork to effectuate the supervisor's request. Being on leave (medical or otherwise) when this occurs is NOT a discriminatory action in and of itself.

Now if your supervisor had made comments regarding your medical condition during your time there, etc...then you may have a case.

As for the HR office who handled the termination, there could be many reasons for that (manning issues at Durham in HR, lack of expertise in doing a probation removal in Durham vs Asheville, etc)...not suspicious in and of itself.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
jazzyeng  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:46:47 AM(UTC)
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Thanks, No there wasn't any counseling or anything. It sucks to be a Combat Veteran that has scarified it all to fired from the organization that says it's there for me is crazy . Then i'm on leave for a combat related issue and I'm terminated . Just wow. And the final kicker the reason for the termination was Disorderly conduct . They said someone complained of a phone conversation i had on the phone as a call center employee.

Edited by user Wednesday, November 18, 2020 7:52:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2020 9:47:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
Thanks, No there wasn't any counseling or anything. It sucks to be a Combat Veteran that has scarified it all to fired from the organization that says it's there for me is crazy . Then i'm on leave for a combat related issue and I'm terminated . Just wow. And the final kicker the reason for the termination was Disorderly conduct . They said someone complained of a phone conversation i had on the phone as a call center employee.
HR folks may have better advice, but the fact they gave a specific reason could give you a chance. Should be a recording or a detailed memo on the complaint, with time and date. You should ask for that info.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
jazzyeng  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2020 9:57:26 AM(UTC)
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Thanks a lot Sir appreciate all the advice .
djp  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 18, 2020 8:11:25 PM(UTC)

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The HR thing. In VHA hroffices are scattered. There are no rules that say your position is officially under Durhams payroll or HR office. Forexample I work at HQ VHA levrl by my hr office is stone of the medical centers.

You can get a recording of this call for thrm to prove the reason around your firing. You could use VHA resolution management but you also could use OSC. Or msp but under wrongful termination.

Another issue here...was your leave approved before you took the medical leave?

What sort of medical conditions do you have and did you file documentation around this if this might have played a part in this.
FS0201  
#11 Posted : Thursday, November 19, 2020 1:48:53 PM(UTC)
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Regarding the HR offices processing the action, I don't work for VA (thankfully!), but have worked actions for other bureaus and agencies many times. I doubt this would gain any traction.
The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
jazzyeng  
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:52:46 PM(UTC)
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They approved some of the leave but not all of it . The first three days where approved. But when i notified them of my Doctors care note they said to put in the extra days and they will approve it . But they never did . I had access because I was teleworking and the clerk that handles leave said it was correct . But they still kept it as pending the whole duration . So my doctors note was approved until 4 NOV I received a letter to terminate dated 2 NOV . I have a PTSD issue 100% disabled veteran . I have all the text messages
frankgonzalez  
#13 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2020 4:34:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
They approved some of the leave but not all of it . The first three days where approved. But when i notified them of my Doctors care note they said to put in the extra days and they will approve it . But they never did . I had access because I was teleworking and the clerk that handles leave said it was correct . But they still kept it as pending the whole duration . So my doctors note was approved until 4 NOV I received a letter to terminate dated 2 NOV . I have a PTSD issue 100% disabled veteran . I have all the text messages
Were you placed on LWOP or AWOL as a result of the leave not being approved (understanding your employment ended on 2 NOV)? If not, then no issue there. Leave actions and removals are two different processes. And one does not preclude the other. Even if you had filed an EEO complaint, you would have still been removed.

They had you put in the leave even knowing they were going to remove you in case something got screwed up on their end..and to make certain you had no real issues if that happened.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
jazzyeng  
#14 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2020 5:31:21 AM(UTC)
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No i wasn't put on LWOP, the AWOL i don't know my leave was never approved. I had the leave to cover the periods . Again they approve the first three days of the doctor's care leading up to the weekend . The next leave dates where never approved . So when I called they said we're going to approve it's been entered wrong . So the clerk called me to ensure it was correct. And it still was approved then a few days later I received the letter for dismal. So can I be on leave and at work status at the same time. Would they still have sent the letter for the 2nd or the 5 Nov . So I'm saying technically they didn't follow procedure or protocol. May be. If it didn't matter why allow me to take some of the sick leave but not approve it all ? Just saying . Correction they put me in for 32 hours of LWOP . And denied my Sick leave.

Edited by user Friday, November 20, 2020 5:36:59 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#15 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2020 9:16:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: jazzyeng Go to Quoted Post
No i wasn't put on LWOP, the AWOL i don't know my leave was never approved. I had the leave to cover the periods . Again they approve the first three days of the doctor's care leading up to the weekend . The next leave dates where never approved . So when I called they said we're going to approve it's been entered wrong . So the clerk called me to ensure it was correct. And it still was approved then a few days later I received the letter for dismal. So can I be on leave and at work status at the same time. Would they still have sent the letter for the 2nd or the 5 Nov . So I'm saying technically they didn't follow procedure or protocol. May be. If it didn't matter why allow me to take some of the sick leave but not approve it all ? Just saying . Correction they put me in for 32 hours of LWOP . And denied my Sick leave.
Did you have enough leave already to take 32 hours of SL? If so, then you may have an argument for the LWOP being paid out as SL. As for the timing...if they waited until you returned from leave (which is a pay status), then you would no longer have been on probation, and then the termination becomes more difficult for them to do (need a PIP/Performance Period, etc). Therefore, terminating you while on leave is legal and acceptable (and to be honest, required if your supervisor stated he did not want to continue you past probation). You should still have been paid for the SL (if you had enough to cover the period), and any annual leave you had left should be paid out.

And what procedure or protocol are you claiming is violated? At most, placing you on LWOP (especially if you had not earned enough leave to cover the time you were off is acceptable (and preferable to the other option of AWOL) as you were being terminated and therefore could not be given any advance leave (if needed).

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
FS0201  
#16 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2020 11:17:08 AM(UTC)
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Was the termination effective on 11/2? I am not quite tracking on your timeline, but it seems that you were likely appointed to the position on 11/24/19 and would have passed probation on 11/22. I understand that you have a medical note through the 4th, but if management decided that the 2nd was your last day, I don't see much likelihood you getting the extra hours paid out (you would of course get your AL paid out).

While one complaint regarding a call isn't a lot to terminate on, not a lot is needed. Probation is the final step in the selection process, so candidates are expected to be on their absolute best behavior/performance. I could envision a situation where I advised termination over one instance (and have done so many times), though I would prefer that there be more - or that the supervisor be able to clearly demonstrate what expectations were made, and that the candidate had demonstrated they weren't suitable for the position/federal service.
The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
jazzyeng  
#17 Posted : Friday, November 20, 2020 1:40:24 PM(UTC)
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Sorry if i wasn't clear . I was terminated on paper on the 2 NOV. As I reviewed my lES statement I see that I was put on LWOP 3,4,5,6 NOV . I Had 86 hrs of sick leave when i requested the time off for doctors care. I was never approved for the time off . I now see I was granted the time off as LWOP status. So can I be terminated on the 2 NOV and on leave without pay the next 4 days. In the comment section of my LES it states leave changes where retroactive . My last Les still shows 62 Hrs of sick leave After termination and 260 hrs of AL Plus 83 hrs of Wounded Warrior time . I was a USPS transfer that's why I have a lot of leave time .

Edited by user Sunday, November 22, 2020 4:10:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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