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Department of Defense


The Department of Defense (DoD) is charged with coordinating and supervising all agencies and functions of the government relating directly to national security and the United States armed forces. The mission of the Department of Defense is to provide the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country.

The Department of Defense is America's oldest and largest government agency -tracing its roots back to pre-Revolutionary times. Today, the Department is not only in charge of the military, but it also employs a civilian force of thousands. With over 1.4 million men and women on active duty, and 718,000 civilian personnel, DoD is the nation's largest employer. Another 1.1 million serve in the National Guard and Reserve forces. More than 2 million military retirees and their family members receive benefits.

Perhaps you are working for the DoD or interested in working for the DoD. Here is a forum to share your experience with the DoD.
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maloneyg  
#1 Posted : Thursday, May 06, 2010 2:42:08 AM(UTC)
maloneyg

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How does an employee request a desk audit?  If determined I'm working outside my PD, will Civilian Personnel require an update before a classification is completed? Confused
buckeyeguy2010  
#2 Posted : Thursday, May 06, 2010 9:23:17 PM(UTC)
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moloneyg: I am not quite sure how desk audit requests are handled these days because of how HR operations have been consolidated so much into "HR service centers" where many HR services are provided by one location for entire agencies/services/departments so that you must make many requests by phone/computer unless you happen located at or near the location of the HR center.  Also, due to the reduction in the numbers of HR people (& the retirement of many of the experienced/knowledgeable ones), do not be suprised if the first HR person you are able to reach/have contact with will not know (1) what a desk audit is, (2) its purpose, (3) how to request one and/or (4) who to contact to obtain more information about them.  Any HR types out there care to comment on/explain how the current system actually functions?
Retreaded DD/GS Careerist
frichards  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 10, 2010 6:02:36 PM(UTC)
frichards

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Please remember the desk audit can backfire on you as well.
opel  
#4 Posted : Thursday, June 03, 2010 5:43:01 AM(UTC)
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You should be able to request a desk audit through HR. However, most jobs (other than R&D) are classified on the duties rewquired, not what you feel that you bring to the job. Best solution in the Fed is to move, not insist to be paid more in your current position.
b1dude  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 08, 2010 2:08:28 PM(UTC)
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I'm new to the forum but this topic was interesting to me immediately.  I'm currently in an NSPS position due to be converted to GS.  It appears as though those in our organization entrusted to submit updated PD's as part of the transition (either through error or by intention) have watered down the PD I was hired on (2 months ago) and the transition PD now scores out an entire grade below the pay I was hired at.  The NSPS transition won’t affect my annual pay in the near term however, due to being rated an entire step lower, I will max out the lower step and look forward to no opportunity for step raises in the future.

 

Additional point: my job very clearly delineates my responsibilities by regulation.  It appears as though my duty title responsibilities (per regulation) and the PD used in this transition are diverging.  The results will be leadership demanding over-and-above performance compared to the PD I was hired on (and compensated for).

 

My contribution to this thread:  Doesn't it appear as though this is a case ripe for a "desk audit"?

 

Certainly, use of the chain of command is obvious if my suspicions are confirmed.  However, if the chain chooses to do nothing about these issues (being tasked well beyond the PD a person was hired into) is a desk audit a reasonable resort?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

Respectfully, E

ezurick  
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 13, 2010 11:21:28 PM(UTC)
ezurick

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b1dude wrote:

I'm new to the forum but this topic was interesting to me immediately.  I'm currently in an NSPS position due to be converted to GS.  It appears as though those in our organization entrusted to submit updated PD's as part of the transition (either through error or by intention) have watered down the PD I was hired on (2 months ago) and the transition PD now scores out an entire grade below the pay I was hired at.  The NSPS transition won’t affect my annual pay in the near term however, due to being rated an entire step lower, I will max out the lower step and look forward to no opportunity for step raises in the future.

 

Additional point: my job very clearly delineates my responsibilities by regulation.  It appears as though my duty title responsibilities (per regulation) and the PD used in this transition are diverging.  The results will be leadership demanding over-and-above performance compared to the PD I was hired on (and compensated for).

 

My contribution to this thread:  Doesn't it appear as though this is a case ripe for a "desk audit"?

 

Certainly, use of the chain of command is obvious if my suspicions are confirmed.  However, if the chain chooses to do nothing about these issues (being tasked well beyond the PD a person was hired into) is a desk audit a reasonable resort?

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

Respectfully, E

 
 
As another person posted... be careful asking for a desk audit, it could back-fire on you.  Also, don't think of the position as to what YOU bring to the job (as someone else said).  If the PD was changed when your position was converted back, perhaps management wanted that...  best thing to do is seek a position elsewhere... if they grant a desk audit, your position could be downgraded permanently.  Remember, the manager is the one that will speak to the audit, not you.  You will just get to answer some questions.  It could take many months to complete.  And there is no appeal process!  Done is done!
hjajck  
#7 Posted : Friday, June 25, 2010 5:19:42 AM(UTC)
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opel wrote:
However, most jobs (other than R&D) are classified on the duties rewquired, not what you feel that you bring to the job. Best solution in the Fed is to move, not insist to be paid more in your current position.
 
True, sort of.  I am currently waiting on a Desk Audit, not because of what I insist on being paid, but because my PD is completley inconsistent with what I do.  If they decide to upgrade the position, great.  If not, then at least it will be correctly classified.  And, when they post the job for the next person coming in, it won't be as confusing and they will have a better applicant pool.
JoeyMack  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:12:50 AM(UTC)
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I have just requested one. I have been in federal service for 20 years. the job I am in was down graded 40 years ago. there are 2 positions that have higher pay grades in my agency that are the same as mine. I have been putting it off for years. frankly now I am fed up with other duties as assigned and more and more tasks, technology and equipment I am responsible for. I have aprox 10 to 15 subordinates at various times. I have never heard of anyone here requesting a job audit and being downgraded. The last 30 employees that have gone to the "corporate board" for an upgrade or re-classification have been 100% approved. I realize that there are 2 departments that re-classify for my agency and then there is managements request decision - I don't know who makes the final in this process and how long it takes but I would love to know. I work for the USACE. thanks good luck. Star

JoeyMack2010-08-26 08:38:03
hoskjo  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:53:36 AM(UTC)
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A Sector Enforcement Specialist from CBP requested a desk audit .....

As a result of a request for a desk audit by one Sector Enforcement Specialist (SES), the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) granted the request, analyzed the position, decided the position was not properly classified at the proper grade level, and determined the appropriate grade is a GS-6.
 
JoeyMack  
#10 Posted : Sunday, August 29, 2010 4:35:17 AM(UTC)
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I have heard from my HR rep and he stated that he has forwarded my request to the deck audit officer. I will be keeping you all posted as I go threw this desk audit. again I'm in a 20 year employee in a  supervisor position with evidence of a 35 year old downgrade of my position and 2 others in the USACE that are WS-13 as apposed to my WS-10 thanks - good luck to you all.
JoeyMack2010-08-29 12:41:54
jakesmama  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, September 01, 2010 5:54:20 AM(UTC)
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Just for the record, the regulation does consider "what you bring to the table"...it even goes so far as to say that a position can be upgraded due to the talents a particular employee has in a job.  I have had my position audited and it actually went well, but because i had a good boss who let me write the PD and I was able to write what I really did, not what they thought the job entailed.  Recommend anyone who wants to be audited  check FASCLASS online to see what other people are doing at the same pay grade before they request it...
mresailor  
#12 Posted : Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:23:49 AM(UTC)
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New to the forum, new to Federal arena.

I was an NSPS, transitioned to GS a few weeks ago. Got my letter stating that I would a GS12 Step 2. Got my SF50 and it said GS13 step 1 and have been getting paid at that rate for a few pay periods now. I took the SF50 into my supervisor and said that there must have been a mistake (hoping there wasn't). He looked at it and said that it probably was a mistake by someone in HR, but if allowed, he would let it stand.

Got the final word that it was an HR mistake (even though at the bottom of the SF50 it says that my postition - based on description and duties is a 13). So they are taking back the 13 and putting me at the 12 - AND.. I have to pay back the money they "overpaid" - INCLUDING TAXES...

I am a licensed architect and work with other licensed architects and  engineers. I learned that ALL the others were given a 13. I was told that I am not eligible for the 13 since I was hired under a "different line of funding" - even though I do the exact same daily duties as all of the 13s. My supervisor has even acknowledged this and took it up the chain of command and apparently, they "are working on it.." 

I asked for the PDs for both the 12 and the 13 and there are really no differences aside from a few choice words like "solving 'complex' design problems" vs. "solving design problems."

I called the EEO office and they thought that it was wrong to be hired under a different funding stream and that HR should look into it. I haven't heard anything from HR yet, but have been told to do a desk audit. I am going to move forward with it, but wanted to hear some opinions about my particular situation.

Should I fight the fight to retain my 13, or reevaluate my daily duties (and do things that originally were not discussed at the interview - if they were , I probably wouldn't have taken the posistion) or do I just look for another job? Thanks.

By the way I work for DoD, Navy, NAVFAC (Naval Facilities Engineering Command).

SharonL  
#13 Posted : Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:02:53 AM(UTC)
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It's those few word changes that make all the difference in classification.. complex, far-reaching, independently, etc.
RetirednHappy  
#14 Posted : Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:15:41 AM(UTC)
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Mresailor:  You may have assumed that all the architects were the same working level and all the assignments were the same, but that NSPS conversion letter (indicating GS-12 step 2) validates that there ARE differences. That does not mean it is time to find other emplyment. Sit with your supervisor and have a frank discussion. Validate your desire for advancement. Confirm with work/task examples your ability for independent work, innovative solutions to problems. Since there are GS-13 positions in your NAVFAC activity, it would not be difficult to announce an opening at that level, and you applying. It could be a win-win: your supervisor gets another high-performing GS-13, you get a promotion! Having gone through those same technical/professional grades in my career, I realize the frustration of working as a GS-12 for a while, when others have reached the GS-13 level. That is the structure of the system. Some work is GS-12 level; some is GS-13, etc. Show your professionalism and ability to perform. It will pay dividends in the end. Smile
mresailor  
#15 Posted : Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:40:47 AM(UTC)
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Thanks SharonL - I do realize that they can make all the difference - but in reality, there is no difference in the daily duties between the 12 and 13s. We all do exactly the same thing. And as I said, my immediate supervisor stated that he does realize this and took it to the admirals, etc. and said "I have the same folks sitting right next to each other producing the same quality services and products but  I can't pay them the same..." and apparently the "brass" just shook their heads in agreement...

@ RetirednHappy - thanks for the support. To be honest, this really wouldn't have been that big of an issue if I wasn't given the 13 to start. But now that they are taking it back, and giving it to others - knowing that we all do the exact same thing - simply because I am not in the same "color of money" in terms of lines of funding, its just ridiculous. My supervisor did mention the path of applying for a newly created 13 billet, but apparently he is maxed out on the number of 13 architects in that funding stream. So he told me I would have to wait for one of them to either leave or retire. (one is only 50, the other just turned 35 and had his first child - so I doubt that either will be leaving any time soon). And then, if that were to happen, he would have to announce the opening publicly, then I would have to apply and compete for a job that I am already doing. Like I said, I am new to the government life (only 8 months into it) and it's more confusing than ever.

On the positive note (about showing professionalism and ability to perform) - I work at the Naval Academy and we have an "architect of the academy" that isn't directly tied to our group (aside from oversight on projects) and she has personally singled me out to design highly visible, politically charges projects (rather than RFPs to outside architecture firms).. so with that, by hard work and talent, I think that I've gotten in good graces with the some high profile folks here. Not tooting my own horn, but I do think that I've at least shown I am capable of a 13 at this point.

I did talk to EEO and HR - they are reviewing the PDs for both the 12 and 13 and I should hear something about it soon I hope. I did mention the desk audit to the HR folks and they said that it is an option, but should be one of the last ones since - like others in here have said - it could mean a downgrade in the position I am in - keeping me at the 12... so we will see.

By the way - I am really jealous that you are retired - I can't wait!

Marsha0630  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:52:53 PM(UTC)
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Would like t know what recourse someone has when a person retires and your are told that you are going to oick up all the duties of that GS-12 but still perform your GS-13 duties in a 40 hour work week. Can we request a desk audit? This has happened to two employees in my division of DOE and one of them is me. The problem is when you cannot complete a deliverable because you are taking on a whole FTE workload for the past two years your looked at as if you cannot do your job..any thoughts??? please?
Marsha0630  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, April 24, 2013 8:54:48 PM(UTC)
Marsha0630

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Would like to know what recourse someone has when a person retires and your are told that you are going to pick up all the duties of that GS-12 but still perform your GS-13 duties in a 40 hour work week. Can we request a desk audit? This has happened to two employees in my division of DOE and one of them is me. The problem is when you cannot complete a deliverable because you are taking on a whole FTE workload for the past two years your looked at as if you cannot do your job..any thoughts??? please?
deddude  
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:25:28 AM(UTC)
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I interviewed for a 13 position and was hired , when I got here it was a 12 position. I went back to the interviewer and he said he was sorry, the paperwork was in to make it a 13 position.

I querried some of the other 12's here about the problem, they laughed and said the "paperwork" has been in for 8 years. I was told that desk audits were perfomred for all of the positions in 2005 and everyone agreed that it was 13 work. Then I was told that they had a supervisory person here who was a 13, then brac 2005 came and a 13 got assigned here because of that, and the Supervisor who was already here put in a desk audit and they made him a 14. 3 years later he retired. The billet stayed open for 2 years then was filled by a guy as a 14 for 6 months and he retired.

Now the billet is open and non of us can apply becasue we are 12's. making matters worse, the guy whose spot I filled, went to a 13 position and after 1 year at that position he applied for the 14 spot back here. He was interviewed and then the hiring freeze came down. Another 12 left and took a 13 spot and that billet cant be filled, because when they vacated it, it was dropped all together.

The "manager" who interviewed and hired me says the paperwork is still pending on the 13 spot, to which my repsonse was you are closing billets, so what makes you tink you can get the rest of us to 13's. He said he had no control over the closing of billets, but does have control of making 13 spots.

All of us have Masters degrees and are professionally licensed, hell we have multiple DAU level 3 certs (one has 4). We have been told several times, by 2 different ADMIRALS that are group is outstanding at solving problems, even with budget crunches going on, they don't know how we are able to pull off the products we deliver tiem and time again.
Good luck with the desk audit.
Ignore deddude, he's not really giving legitimate advice.
frankgonzalez  
#19 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 1:17:42 AM(UTC)
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deddude...I'm confused. If you were hired as a 13, you would have recieved paperwork saying what grade/step you were being offered, etc. prior to accepting/starting your current position. If that paperwork said "GS12 (or GG12 if in DCIPS), then I am not certain what exactly your complaint is (you are at the grade you accepted). If you accepted a GS13 position and upon arrival, they said "sorry, it really is a GS12!" then you may have a MSPB or FLRA issue you could raise (if you haven't blown the timelines already).
B-2  
#20 Posted : Thursday, April 25, 2013 2:11:26 AM(UTC)
B-2

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I'm not asking for a desk audit of my Core Doc which will get you a fast review. Had a meeting with my manager asking for a review of my Core Doc first. Management has to ask HR for the review of the Core Doc to start the long process.Note: This process could take a year I was told by the HR Office due to the work load at this time, five people are in waiting, 80 have been completed on my base alone. With PD's I got from other bases doing the same job but a higher grade I wrote my own new PD and submitted same with what I do every day.
B-2
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