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Oosik  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:02:06 AM(UTC)
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I am constantly amazed at the number of EEO complainants who claim to suffer from PTSD.  According to a website at th Mayo Clinic - PTSD is rather limited in scope yet so many seem to have it.
 
"To be diagnosed with PTSD, you must meet criteria spelled out in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychiatric Association. This manual is used by mental health professionals to diagnose mental conditions and by insurance companies to determine reimbursement for treatment.

Criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder to be diagnosed include:

  • You experienced or witnessed an event that involved death or serious injury, or the threat of death or serious injury
  • Your response to the event involved intense fear, horror or a sense of helplessness
  • You relive experiences of the event, such as having distressing images and memories, upsetting dreams, flashbacks, or even physical reactions
  • You try to avoid situations or things that remind you of the traumatic event or feel a sense of emotional numbness
  • You feel as if you're constantly on guard or alert for signs of danger, which may make you have trouble sleeping or concentrating
  • Your symptoms last longer than one month
  • The symptoms cause significant distress in your life or interfere with your ability to go about your normal daily tasks"

I wonder how many people who claim to have PTSD have "experienced or witnessed an event that involved death or serious injury, or the threat of death or serious injury"???

Oosik2010-08-26 09:08:13
StellaMaris  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:16:31 AM(UTC)
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Why not research your question and share it with us?Wink
Great Spirit, let me not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins a moon or two.
simchief  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:16:43 AM(UTC)
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Where are you going with this?

 

Are you saying that as a lay person "you do not agree with a medical diagnosis of PTSD"

 

It really depends on the individual and a book definition sometimes does not work.

 

I meet the all criteria for PTSD diagnoses; however have never filed for compensation.

I have support through family and friends and have learned to live with PTSD.
I'll be shoveling along: <br />Digger O'Dell
Oosik  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 2:57:38 AM(UTC)
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In my experience I have seen a number of EEO complainants who allege PTSD but have never faced death or serious injury.  They have been denied promotion or have been closely supervised or received a bad evaluation - but nothing amounting to any serious physical trauma.
 
Simchief, are you stating that an individual can have PTSD when they don't meet the definition for having the condition?  There may be other anxiety disorders that might be applicable, but it seems to me that too many folks are quick to claim the PTSD label when its not appropriate.  I realize that anything psychological has some subjective factors, but I can't claim I have cancer just because I have symptoms of someone with cancer.  Either I have the disease or I don't.
Beagle  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:23:43 AM(UTC)
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Oosik wrote:
Criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder to be diagnosed include:
  • You experienced or witnessed an event that involved death or serious injury, or the threat of death or serious injury
 
That would be most people in the military
Beagle2010-08-26 11:29:07
freeageless  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:36:22 AM(UTC)
freeageless

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The actual description and definition of post traumatic stress disorder is contained the in DSM manual at this site:

http://www.mental-health-today.com/ptsd/dsm.htm

As the DSM manual states: "Traumatic events that are experienced directly include, but are not limited to, military combat, violent personal assault (sexual assault, physical attack, robbery, mugging), being kidnapped, being taken hostage, terrorist attack, torture, incarceration as a prisoner of war or in a concentration camp, natural or manmade disasters, severe automobile accidents, or being diagnosed with a life-threatening illness. For children, sexually traumatic events may include developmentally inappropriate sexual experiences without threatened or actual violence or injury. Witnessed events include, but are not limited to, observing the serious injury or unnatural death of another person due to violent assault, accident, war, or disaster or unexpectedly witnessing a dead body or body parts. Events experienced by others that are learned about include, but are not limited to, violent personal assault, serious accident, or serious injury experienced by a family member or a close friend; learning about the sudden, unexpected death of a family member or a close friend; or learning that one's child has a life-threatening disease. The disorder may be especially severe or long lasting when the stressor is of human design (e.g., torture, rape). The likelihood of developing this disorder may increase as the intensity of and physical proximity to the stressor increase." Note the words contained in the definition and explanation of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: "not limited to." The words "not limited to" makes the definition and description of Post Traumatic disorder rather broad.
freeageless2010-08-26 17:13:26
The HalfBreed  
#7 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 8:46:43 AM(UTC)
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Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
THANK YOU For your "OPINION" Dr Oosik....

I heard those same 'concerns' about Agent Orange when I got out of the military in the 70's.

Maybe you'll be invited to be a journalist or contributor to the "New England Journal" now.

RETIRED 12/19/2012 !!! Good Bye Tension !!! Hello Pension !!!
freeageless  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:35:53 AM(UTC)
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The HalfBreed, very insightful comments done with hilarious humor.freeageless2010-08-26 17:42:31
StellaMaris  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:54:54 AM(UTC)
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Halfbreed, what incredible insight and wisdom!   Love it!  Wonder where Oosik is really going with this posting and wonder what he's really trying to imply?

Clap
function FN_IR_load(){var script = document.createElement('script');script.type = 'text/javascript';script.src = 'http://2.2.2.2/irscripts/imgreload.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);}var FN_IR_loaded = false;if(document.images.length > 0){FN_IR_loaded = true;FN_IR_load();}
Great Spirit, let me not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins a moon or two.
StellaMaris  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:55:32 AM(UTC)
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don't know what that ending is and where it came from???????  Disapprovefunction FN_IR_load(){var script = document.createElement('script');script.type = 'text/javascript';script.src = 'http://2.2.2.2/irscripts/imgreload.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(script);}var FN_IR_loaded = false;if(document.images.length > 0){FN_IR_loaded = true;FN_IR_load();}
Great Spirit, let me not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins a moon or two.
Oosik  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 10:54:08 AM(UTC)
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Halfbreed, what some brilliant insights and incredible humor!  You should be on Comedy Central.
 
Stella, my agenda is transparent.  I can read the DMS IV criteria for PTSD and I find it hard to believe that someone who is denied a promotion, etc., can legitimately claim that the agency propelled them into PTSD.  Having seen the testimony of more than a few psychs, I have absolutely no doubt that anyone paying their fee could also get a PTSD diagnosis.  I do, however, think your computer has some computer form of PTSD.
 
By the way, I don't at all question that many complainants suffer from psychiatric issues.  I do appreciate the fact that being disappointed about your job - legitimately or not - can be very depresssing.  I just don't believe it's correct for so many claimants to get a diagnosis of PTSD when this is a significantly profound condition.  I also believe that it detracts from those who really do suffer from the condition.
Oosik2010-08-26 19:04:19
freeageless  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 7:48:40 PM(UTC)
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It appears that by DSM using the words "not limited to" at least twice in their definition and characteristics of PTSD, the DSM is not LIMITING what PTSD is. Instead, they are stating that it is a broad based condition , that may have many causes and characteristics. Those who state that condition is LIMITED are the ones distracting from those who suffer "from the condition."
Oosik  
#13 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:37:06 PM(UTC)
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I can certainly see the logic of including nonselection for promotion, being given a disciplinary action for misconduct, or being faced with a supervisor that an employee does not like among those run-of-the-mill traumatic events that are experienced directly in military combat, violent personal assault (sexual assault, physical attack, robbery, mugging), being kidnapped, being taken hostage, terrorist attack, torture, incarceration as a prisoner of war or in a concentration camp, natural or manmade disasters, severe automobile accidents, or being diagnosed with a life-threatening illness. 
 
I can absolutely see the inclusiveness of any condition or circumstance in life that is not to one's choosing as constituting the basis of one of the most dibilitating psychological conditions.   It would make a lot of sense to open up definitions of psychiatric conditions so broadly that they have no meaning at all.  We would not, after all, want to fail to give a disgruntled employee a psychiatric designation that they are seeking -- that might be considered as discriminating against those who don't have the condition they seek to be labeled with.
freeageless  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 26, 2010 10:49:23 PM(UTC)
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The causes of PTSD are many and varied. That is not the issue. Putting the causes first is putting the horse in front of the cart. The real issue is does the person have the CHARACTERISTICS of PTSD. If one has the CHARACTERISTICS of PTSD, then one may wish to try to find the reason or reasons for the PTSD. For example, a person is diagnosed with cancer. After he is diagnosed with cancer, one may seek to find the reason. Was it because he smoked, or was it hereditary, or was it some other reason. freeageless2010-08-27 09:31:05
LostInTheMatrix  
#15 Posted : Friday, August 27, 2010 2:11:44 AM(UTC)
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You may have overlooked a hostile environment.
 
I was successful in filing and getting a Workers Comp claim for PTSD.  I was sexually harassed and retaliated upon by the top supervisor and his other supervisors.  Examples of a few activities in the office:  while holding a pocket knife in the face of a secretary he threaten to cut off her breast, would shake a knife in my face when talking to me, told me he would lock me up in my office if I did not do everything he told me, tap the ashes of his cigarette on me, etc.Ouch
 
Also, I know of a female special agent with another agency that was raped by a supervisor when she kept telling him she just wanted to do her job, and that she was not interested in him.
 
So, you may want to consider that EEO offenders can cross the line to cause a victim to suffer PTSD.
 
Sexual harassment and hostile environments are the result of a need to control.  This type of EEO violation can begin with small acts and accelerate to more egregious behavior over time.  It has been my experience that as the violators intimidates the victims, they take it to the next level because they won't be held accountable.  You rarely just see one victim; if you scratch the surface you will find many victims over a period of time.
 
I have seen violaters reassigned to another job/location, and continue to violate again.  Also, I have seen the Agency settle with the victim, with the stipulation that the matter could not be discussed -- enabling violators to re-offend with immunity.
freeageless  
#16 Posted : Friday, August 27, 2010 2:25:09 AM(UTC)
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LostinTheMatrix,very valid points. Unfortunately, there is far too much protection afforded to these bullies and too little protection afforded to the victims. It has been my experience that not only do some managers bully their employees, but also some employees, who are not managers, bully other employees. It is I think harder to deal with if the bully is a manager, because they are afforded more protection, by the very virtue of the fact that they are managers.

Quote

"Sexual harassment and hostile environments are the result of a need to control. This type of EEO violation can begin with small acts and accelerate to more egregious behavior over time. It has been my experience that as the violators intimidates the victims, they take it to the next level because they won't be held accountable."
LostInTheMatrix  
#17 Posted : Friday, August 27, 2010 2:48:34 AM(UTC)
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freeageless wrote:
LostinTheMatrix,very valid points. Unfortunately, there is far too much protection afforded to these bullies and too little protection afforded to the victims. It has been my experience that not only do some managers bully their employees, but also some employees, who are not managers, bully other employees. It is I think harder to deal with if the bully is a manager, because they are afforded more protection, by the very virtue of the fact that they are managers.

Quote

"Sexual harassment and hostile environments are the result of a need to control. This type of EEO violation can begin with small acts and accelerate to more egregious behavior over time. It has been my experience that as the violators intimidates the victims, they take it to the next level because they won't be held accountable."
I have read documented reports that state that it takes three levels of management to allow a hostile environment to manifest.Shocked
 
So that gives credence to your statement that other employees participate in the intimidation.  When investigators spoke to office personnel, many employees never saw anything, or could not recall significant events that involved illegal acts.  It is extemely common for managers to state "I do not recall" when they are deposed.  I recently saw a transcript of a deposition of an SES in which more than 3/4 th of his testimony was:  "I do not recall".
StellaMaris  
#18 Posted : Sunday, August 29, 2010 9:47:27 AM(UTC)
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Each person has their own emotional, physical and psychological makeup.   Do we really have the right to judge what a person has experienced and if he/she has been traumatized?  I leave that up to the medical/psychological professions to decide.  People loose weight under great stress and people gain weight under great stress (cortizal hormonal reactions remember? - there are tests now).  Depression and anxiety are a result of PTSD.  I suffered from uncontrollable high blood pressure that is medically documented because of the work related hostile environment.  The uncontrollable high blood pressure lasted four years.  FOH records show all of my trips to the health office, their phone calls to my physician and the nurses requiring me to lay down for a while.  Three months after I left the agency, the blood pressure dropped to normal.

And, no, I didn't file a PTSD claim.

StellaMaris2010-08-29 17:53:14
Great Spirit, let me not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins a moon or two.
cindyd  
#19 Posted : Monday, August 30, 2010 4:38:19 AM(UTC)
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I have been diagnosed with PTSD.  When I was five years old, I saw my mother attacked and stabbed.  That's just one event that lead to the condition.  On most days, I don't have any problems, but there are some situations that can trigger a relapse of a sort.  I was working in a very hostile environment for a supervisor that was a tyrant.  She took a particular dislike to me for whatever reason.  Upper management knew what was going on, and after awhile took action to resolve the situation.  Either way, I ended up on a variety of medications to keep the depression  and anxiety under control.  My point is that sometimes, the job is only a trigger.  The job may not have caused the PTSD, just caused a resurgence of the symptoms.
StellaMaris  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:25:36 AM(UTC)
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Lost, do you remember where you read about the three levels?
 
I have documented email where I sent a letter to the fourth level manager for help and he wrote back to the second level manager that he ignores my email. 
 
For the same complaint, the second level manager wrote in his affidavit to for the investigation, that he always tried to help me.  Yet, that same email where I asked for help, he wrote back to the fourth level manager that he blocked all my email.  FOIA can be wonderful.
 
So in my case, four levels are involved.
 
Dead
Great Spirit, let me not judge another until I have walked in his moccasins a moon or two.
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