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valdeztke  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:34:21 PM(UTC)
valdeztke

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Pretty simple one here:

I'm currently a GS13-S3. (25% locality) I've found a position in a much more attractive area that is a GS12 position (35% locality).  

The question: Could they bring me into that position at the GS12-S9 grade so that my base pay would remain the same as the current 13 base pay? 



Knight  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:38:09 PM(UTC)
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You can ask but since you are volunteering to step back they do not have to.
computerscott2  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:53:37 AM(UTC)
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Also remember this, they do not make the moves using locality, it is based off of the GS base scale. So take what you are making at GS-13 S3 on the base scale and then see what is the first step on the GS 12 base scale that is the slightest bit higher (can be as little as $1/year) and that is what they could figuratively stick you in at. Then locality gets added back on top of that. But yes it is also up to the agencies. Most agencies I have transferred with/to have always made it where I did not lose money (based on the conversion). I did lose some money based on the lower locality, but I didn't lose it on the conversion to lower grade. computerscott22010-12-30 09:59:22
valdeztke  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:56:15 AM(UTC)
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computerscott2 wrote:
Also remember this, they do not make the moves using locality, it is based off of the GS base scale. So take what you are making at GS-13 S3 on the base scale and then see what is the first step on the GS 12 base scale that is the slightest bit higher (can be as little as $1/year) and that is what they could figuratively stick you in at. Then locality gets added back on top of that. But yes it is also up to the agencies. Most agencies I have transferred with/to have always made it where I did not lose money (based on the conversion). I did lose some money based on the lower locality, but I didn't lose it on the conversion to lower grade.

Thanks Scott. That is how I looked at it. Basically it equates to going from a GS13-S3 to a GS12-S9. They also have noted in the announcement the hiring official prefers to hire from the local community. 

balletchic28  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:42:33 AM(UTC)
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I voluntarily took a position at a lower grade and kept my pay.  I went from a GS-9-S2 (on the GS scale) to GS-7-S6 (on the GS scale but special rate table) so my pay actually went up slightly. balletchic282010-12-30 12:47:57
Spaceshot  
#6 Posted : Sunday, January 02, 2011 10:44:21 PM(UTC)
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Knight wrote:
You can ask but since you are volunteering to step back they do not have to.
 
[...] 
 
Yes they have to.  If your pay was over the GS-12 they would not HAVE to put you in save pay status.  You would drop down to a GS-12 s10.   But if your current pay fits in the pay scale then they will put it there.
 
If you took a GS-9 position you would not get save pay but you could get 9 s10 and lose money, or they could offer you save pay.  Notice I said COULD.....
Admin2011-01-04 06:59:19
computerscott2  
#7 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 1:19:45 AM(UTC)
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MAXIMUM PAYABLE RATE RULE

Description

The maximum payable rate rule is a special rule that allows an agency to set pay for a General Schedule (GS) employee at a rate above the rate that would be established using normal rules, based on a higher rate of pay the employee previously received in another Federal job. The pay set under the maximum payable rate rule may not exceed the rate for step 10 of the GS grade or be less than the rate to which the employee would be entitled under normal pay-setting rules. The maximum payable rate rule may be used in various pay actions, including reemployment, transfer, reassignment, promotion, demotion, change in type of appointment, termination of a critical position pay authority under 5 CFR part 535, movement from a non-GS pay system, or termination of grade or pay retention under 5 CFR part 536.

§ 532.405   Use of highest previous rate.

(a)(1) Subject to the provisions of §532.407 of this subpart and part 536 of this chapter, when an employee is reemployed, reassigned, transferred, promoted, or changed to a lower grade, the agency may fix the pay at any rate of the new grade which does not exceed the employee's highest previous rate.

Notice the two highlighted words in the above paragraphs. The agency is under no obligation to offer "save-pay" or "save-grade" on voluntary downgrades of positions. Only when it is an agency decision and not the decision of the employee (through voluntary or disciplinary reasons) to downgrade or eliminate the current position does the agency have to offer "save-pay" or "save-grade".
Knight  
#8 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 2:16:51 AM(UTC)
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[...]  As computerscott pointed out they do not have to give you anything for a voluntary downgrade.
 
 
Admin2011-01-04 07:00:35
valdeztke  
#9 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 2:46:59 AM(UTC)
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Got it. That helps a great deal. So the answer to my question is YES they CAN (keyword). 

If the agency really wants me - setting my pay is on them. 

Thanks all. 

NavyQueen23  
#10 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 4:24:43 AM(UTC)
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Just to clarify: it would be GS-12 s10 vice s9.
computerscott2  
#11 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 8:01:36 PM(UTC)
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Here is the link to OPM website to put a definitive end to this arguement:
Here is what it says:
Can an employee establish initial entitlement to grade or pay retention upon transfer to another agency?

 If an employee is reduced in grade or pay in conjunction with a transfer to another agency, there is no mandatory entitlement to grade or pay retention. However, the gaining agency may grant grade or pay retention under its optional authority (5 CFR 536.202 or 536.302), as long as the employee is otherwise qualified.

One of the eligibility conditions is that the reduction in grade or pay not be "at the employee's request" (5 CFR 536.102(b)(1)). If the transfer is initiated by the employee for his or her benefit, convenience, or personal advantage (including a transfer to avoid adverse action based on personal cause), it would be considered to be at the employee's request, thus barring grade or pay retention. However, if the transfer was directly caused or influenced by a management action (not based on personal cause), then even though the transfer appeared to be voluntary, it would not be "at the employee's request." (See definitions ofmanagement action and reduced in grade or pay at the employee's request in 5 CFR 536.103.)

For purposes of providing optional grade retention to a transferring employee, the management action must be either a specific RIF notice or a written announcement of a reorganization or reclassification that might result in reduction of the employee's grade. For purposes of optional pay retention, the management action must be an action that would result in a pay reduction (after the application of any applicable geographic conversion under 5 CFR 536.303(a) and in the absence of pay retention).

Note: A movement between subcomponents of an Executive department or other Executive agency cannot be considered a transfer. Under the law, the term "agency" includes Executive departments and certain other agencies. (See 5 U.S.C. 101-105, 5102(a), and 5361(2).) Thus, it is possible for mandatory grade and pay retention to apply to an employee who moves between subcomponents of an Executive department or other Executive agency--e.g., if the employee is placed in a lower-graded position at management initiative as a result of reduction-in-force procedures.

 
computerscott22011-01-04 04:08:29
valdeztke  
#12 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 8:24:13 PM(UTC)
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computerscott2 wrote:
Here is the link to OPM website to put a definitive end to this arguement:
Here is what it says:
Can an employee establish initial entitlement to grade or pay retention upon transfer to another agency?

 If an employee is reduced in grade or pay in conjunction with a transfer to another agency, there is no mandatory entitlement to grade or pay retention. However, the gaining agency may grant grade or pay retention under its optional authority (5 CFR 536.202 or 536.302), as long as the employee is otherwise qualified.

One of the eligibility conditions is that the reduction in grade or pay not be "at the employee's request" (5 CFR 536.102(b)(1)). If the transfer is initiated by the employee for his or her benefit, convenience, or personal advantage (including a transfer to avoid adverse action based on personal cause), it would be considered to be at the employee's request, thus barring grade or pay retention. However, if the transfer was directly caused or influenced by a management action (not based on personal cause), then even though the transfer appeared to be voluntary, it would not be "at the employee's request." (See definitions ofmanagement action and reduced in grade or pay at the employee's request in 5 CFR 536.103.)

For purposes of providing optional grade retention to a transferring employee, the management action must be either a specific RIF notice or a written announcement of a reorganization or reclassification that might result in reduction of the employee's grade. For purposes of optional pay retention, the management action must be an action that would result in a pay reduction (after the application of any applicable geographic conversion under 5 CFR 536.303(a) and in the absence of pay retention).

Note: A movement between subcomponents of an Executive department or other Executive agency cannot be considered a transfer. Under the law, the term "agency" includes Executive departments and certain other agencies. (See 5 U.S.C. 101-105, 5102(a), and 5361(2).) Thus, it is possible for mandatory grade and pay retention to apply to an employee who moves between subcomponents of an Executive department or other Executive agency--e.g., if the employee is placed in a lower-graded position at management initiative as a result of reduction-in-force procedures.

"A movement between subcomponents of an Executive department or other Executive agency cannot be considered a transfer." With that being said ....My move is not only in the same agency but in the same military command just in a different location.  Since this is not a "transfer" it would seem that none of the above applies based on the continued reference to transfer followed by a clear definition of what a transfer is. 


computerscott2  
#13 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 8:41:43 PM(UTC)
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Again this was just used to show that an agency is not MANDATED to give pay retention, but can offer it if they want to. There is also a difference in "Pay Retention" a.k.a "save-pay" and Grade retention a.k.a "save-grade". There is a 3rd distiction known as Previous Highest Rate (HPR). That is what you are concerned with. In my experience most inter-agency transfers were done with HPR given automatically, since you are already in their payroll systemsand they are already paying you the salary anyways. If you don't max out above the step 10 you can even get a slight payraise by doing this. Just know that they would be in their right to offer you the step 1 if that is all the agency could afford. Go for it and let us know how it turns out. My motto is this "You can always turn down a job you decide is not a good fit later, but you can never accept a job you didn't put in for."
valdeztke  
#14 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 9:03:08 PM(UTC)
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"You can always turn down a job you decide is not a good fit later, but you can never accept a job you didn't put in for."

Well said Scott, well said. 

I'm on the cold and dreary east coast. This happens to be in the sunshine filled majestic tranquility overlooking the Pacific. 
computerscott2  
#15 Posted : Monday, January 03, 2011 11:37:57 PM(UTC)
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Well like the saying goes "Go west young man...."
joecrab  
#16 Posted : Thursday, January 06, 2011 8:41:53 AM(UTC)
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Yeah all I was just informed that our agency does not want WS's any more and they will change the position to  a WG 12 ... but I will be getting save pay   Does any one know the proper way the form 52 should look going from the basic rate of pay for the WS rate to the rate of pay for the WG ?  What code do they put in under the step at WG 12 to show that the rate of pay is the same as the pay for the WS9 spot.?
sakijo  
#17 Posted : Friday, January 07, 2011 3:32:29 AM(UTC)
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joecrab wrote:
Yeah all I was just informed that our agency does not want WS's any more and they will change the position to  a WG 12 ... but I will be getting save pay   Does any one know the proper way the form 52 should look going from the basic rate of pay for the WS rate to the rate of pay for the WG ?  What code do they put in under the step at WG 12 to show that the rate of pay is the same as the pay for the WS9 spot.?
 
Your job series will look like WG-XXXX/00.  The "00" signifies that you're being paid over the top step.  At least that's what mine shows: GS-0501/00.
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