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Federal Employees: You be the Judge


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COinNC  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:39:30 PM(UTC)
COinNC

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ConfusedYes it is called a "summary judgment". The Question/Concern I have is - …Since, The Agency has issued a Motion (requesting a summary judgment) and I have issued my rebuttal to their motion (requesting a hearing). It is my understanding that the AJ will act first on The Agency's Motion (either move forward with Summary Judgment or allow the hearing) that I (the complainant) have requested. So that being said,... How long will it take the AJ to address "The Agency’s Jan 09 Motion for Summary Judgment and my rebuttal requesting a Hearing"? And how does the 180 Days apply here? Confused
mudpie  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:16:55 PM(UTC)
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EEOC has no timeline. Only the Agency had a 180 day timeline to complete the investigation and notify the complainant.

Since the EEOC is administrative, just another hoop to jump through, it is not a legal decision. If you are adamant about your claim, file in federal court once EEOC issues their decision. This is the time for an attorney.
BIGPAPPA  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:01:04 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

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Give it some time... No the agency will not prevail in its motion if you have waited past 180 days for the agency to the investigation. Take avantage of the hoops because you are not the only person going through so is the agency. By requesting a hearing you are taking power out of their hands and placing the power into the EEOC hands. Eventually an AJ will be assigned to your case and tell the agency to produce complaint file and RIO. If they fail to do so... Its going to get very interesting for you. I would not just run into federal court so fast let everything play out first.

quote:
Originally posted by COinNC:
ConfusedYes it is called a "summary judgment". The Question/Concern I have is - …Since, The Agency has issued a Motion (requesting a summary judgment) and I have issued my rebuttal to their motion (requesting a hearing). It is my understanding that the AJ will act first on The Agency's Motion (either move forward with Summary Judgment or allow the hearing) that I (the complainant) have requested. So that being said,... How long will it take the AJ to address "The Agency’s Jan 09 Motion for Summary Judgment and my rebuttal requesting a Hearing"? And how does the 180 Days apply here? Confused
BIGPAPPA  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:09:52 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

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If the complainant wins in eeoc there is no need to file in court...

quote:
Originally posted by mudpie:
EEOC has no timeline. Only the Agency had a 180 day timeline to complete the investigation and notify the complainant.

Since the EEOC is administrative, just another hoop to jump through, it is not a legal decision. If you are adamant about your claim, file in federal court once EEOC issues their decision. This is the time for an attorney.
Break Heart  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:49:54 AM(UTC)
Break Heart

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Dear mudpie,

May I ask you: Are you an attorney? If you are, please notice my message. Whoever knows one day I will be your client because I have some important evidences which were Agency did not like post in the public. I do not mind I will exposure my real name in the public before I die. My words may reopen one Agency dismissed legal case before I worked for Agency. That legal case was my boss told me. She 100% positive confirmed that incident happened. “What goes around and comes around”.

Sorry, I bother you.

Sincerely

Wink Wink Wink
Mystery
tazz  
#6 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2009 3:40:11 AM(UTC)
tazz

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Posts: 9

BigPappa is absolutely correct in his statement you need to wait. Agencies almost always ask for a summary judgement - they would be stupid not to because they want it over. However you have asked for a hearing - as BigPappa said - it will be assigned to an AJ. EEO complaints are a HUGE waiting game and sometimes it comes down to who is able to go the distance. My age discrimination complaint took 2 years - start to finish - went through every hoop - all the way to the final EEOC ruling which the agency still appealed on the basis it would disrupt internal selection of candidates. EEOC didn't buy it - I won - no lawyer. Give it time, keep your cool, stay the course and have patience. Good Luck!
paybenefits  
#7 Posted : Monday, August 31, 2009 6:30:10 AM(UTC)
paybenefits

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* Updating master records of new employees into the Payroll system
* Updating pay raises into the Payroll system
* Updating or Uploading attendance records into Payroll system
* Computation of time based pay conforming to employment contracts and current policies on allowances
* Computation of performance based pay based on employment contracts; performance metrics; and appraisal records
* Computation of statutory and discretionary benefits including social security, health cover etc
* Preparation of payroll for each pay period
* Preparation of disbursement instructions (direct transfers, checks etc)
* Determination of accounting charges and credits for payroll for each pay period
* Transmission of disbursement instruction to you for review and execution (we do not execute payments on your behalf since our insurers frown upon this)
* Uploading accounting entries into your books to incorporate payroll
* Preparation of statutory returns for filing with Regulatory authorities
* Preparation of business reports on payroll
* Analysis of manpower cost by segment, employee levels etc
Thanks and regards
paybenefits
shadwmom  
#8 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2009 5:06:43 AM(UTC)
shadwmom

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It's true, EEOC has no timeframes, & both they & the agencies try to use that to 'outlast' the complainants, hoping they'll give up & go away. Agency attorneys don't want to do the work of litigating; judges (both EEOC & MSPB) just want to make the cases go away, so summary judgments are appealing to both of them. It's also true that both EEOC & MSPB have judges left over from the very anti-employee Bush era, so the employee/plaintiff is at a disadvantage before he even starts. While EEOC has no timeframes, you as the complainant have the option of going to District Court after a period of time with no action on your case (maybe 180 days?). If your gut tells you you've got a reasonably fair judge assigned to your case, it may be worth waiting a while longer; however, if you have reason to believe the EEOC judge is more likely to rule against you, you might as well go forward to District Court to speed things up. You'll end up there, anyway, if you get a bad decision & have to appeal, so why not jump-start the process before you have a negative ruling to overcome?
MindInquiring  
#9 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2009 5:13:59 AM(UTC)
MindInquiring

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quote:
Originally posted by soon2BXfed:
It's true, EEOC has no timeframes, & both they & the agencies try to use that to 'outlast' the complainants, hoping they'll give up & go away. Agency attorneys don't want to do the work of litigating; judges (both EEOC & MSPB) just want to make the cases go away, so summary judgments are appealing to both of them. It's also true that both EEOC & MSPB have judges left over from the very anti-employee Bush era, so the employee/plaintiff is at a disadvantage before he even starts. While EEOC has no timeframes, you as the complainant have the option of going to District Court after a period of time with no action on your case (maybe 180 days?). If your gut tells you you've got a reasonably fair judge assigned to your case, it may be worth waiting a while longer; however, if you have reason to believe the EEOC judge is more likely to rule against you, you might as well go forward to District Court to speed things up. You'll end up there, anyway, if you get a bad decision & have to appeal, so why not jump-start the process before you have a negative ruling to overcome?



Right on Soon,
I would like to add that before going into district court that you file a FAD (final agency decision) this way the agency will have to lay out it's whole defense to you, then appeal the FAD before the commission. if the commission rules against you then go to district court. Remember you have the agency's whole defense as a result of asking for a fad. If, the timeline for a fad runs out, then you file (what I like to call) a NoFAD with the Commission and make sure you include that the agency not be allowed to file a brief because they did not file a FAD. AJ's decisons are hard to overturn unless you can prove PROCEDURAL ERROR. How do I know all of this - hind site is 20/20.
Cool
BIGPAPPA  
#10 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2009 1:07:10 PM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

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Posts: 292

I have said it before and I will say it again for most people this is a bad deal. It is best to go through the normal process and keep your timelines in order and do not give the agency not one single to mess around.

quote:
Originally posted by MindInquiring:
quote:
Originally posted by soon2BXfed:
It's true, EEOC has no timeframes, & both they & the agencies try to use that to 'outlast' the complainants, hoping they'll give up & go away. Agency attorneys don't want to do the work of litigating; judges (both EEOC & MSPB) just want to make the cases go away, so summary judgments are appealing to both of them. It's also true that both EEOC & MSPB have judges left over from the very anti-employee Bush era, so the employee/plaintiff is at a disadvantage before he even starts. While EEOC has no timeframes, you as the complainant have the option of going to District Court after a period of time with no action on your case (maybe 180 days?). If your gut tells you you've got a reasonably fair judge assigned to your case, it may be worth waiting a while longer; however, if you have reason to believe the EEOC judge is more likely to rule against you, you might as well go forward to District Court to speed things up. You'll end up there, anyway, if you get a bad decision & have to appeal, so why not jump-start the process before you have a negative ruling to overcome?



Right on Soon,
I would like to add that before going into district court that you file a FAD (final agency decision) this way the agency will have to lay out it's whole defense to you, then appeal the FAD before the commission. if the commission rules against you then go to district court. Remember you have the agency's whole defense as a result of asking for a fad. If, the timeline for a fad runs out, then you file (what I like to call) a NoFAD with the Commission and make sure you include that the agency not be allowed to file a brief because they did not file a FAD. AJ's decisons are hard to overturn unless you can prove PROCEDURAL ERROR. How do I know all of this - hind site is 20/20.
Cool
MindInquiring  
#11 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 1:05:04 AM(UTC)
MindInquiring

Rank: Advisor

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Joined: 5/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 183

While BIGPAPPA may be right, there are numerous pros and cons about everything. Since this is a board of written discussion, I think anyone that is trying to decide should probably have this conversion with someone with experience in person or by phone so he/she will have a clear picture of these pros and cons.

Based on my personal 20/20 hindsite observations is that if you happen to get a judge that is an agency person and s/he writes his decision in favor of the agency, it is very difficult to get it overturned, and I am not sure anymore if procedural error is enough to get them overturned anymore. I had a judge that I thought was a fair judge, but when he wrote he wrote his decision he clearly made excuses for the agency’s actions and inactions. Actually, the agency did not deny my allegation because their offense was so clear. Since the burden is on the complainant is almost unreachable I support my allegations here and in my claims with documents. For example; in the hearing (and documented in the transcript) the judge asked the manager leading questions that helping the manager with his testimony; the agency withheld documents that I requested under discovery so I filed several motions to compel stating the reasons I needed the documents, the judge never responded to my motions. In his decision the judge alleged that I had been a problem for the agency since 1989 (which is not true) but how big of a problem could I have been if the agency allowed me to remain an employee for 20 years (it is discrimination to keep an employee on board because they might file an EEO complaint), furthermore what I did or didn’t do did not have anything to do with the issues in the claim before him. This same judge would not allow the one and only agency witness that I requested to testify. In my first hearing, while I was trying to question the manager, the judge kept interrupting me and I never got a response to my question because he made it impossible. On the second day of my hearing I fainted and had to be removed by the paramedic and guess what, the judge proceeded with the hearing after I was removed. The agency submitted a hand written note which clearly described my supervisors harassment of me, obviously the manager forgot what he wrote on the note and changed the discription of the event when I questioned him under oath but guess what???? the judge found him credible - oh yeah, this is all in writing, the managers note and his testimony in the transcript.

I think before anyone reaches a decision or FAD or hearing, if there is a way to find out about the judges stats it would help and would speak volumes.

I think anyone caught between making a decision of FAD or hearing should be clear on the pros and cons and not depend or rely solely on the opinions on this board. This is decision that could possibly make or break your case. I would totally agree that a hearing was the way to go if I had not seen first hand what can happen.

My claim is very simple but - while under the judges jurisdiction, my claim was dragged out for 7 years, where if I had ask for a FAD, I believe I would have already been finished. In a FAD the agency lays out their defense and I refute it.

I'm not disagreeing with BIGPAPPA, I am just saying that based on the pros and cons one should look at both sides with clear eyes.

I must say that I am finding that more attorneys are beginning to go the FAD route, and in my personal opinion, to by pass the circus.

Whichever you do, make sure you follow all of the applicable timeframes and protocols, just because the agency is not required to do so does mean you have the same right.

Also, keep in mind that the judges’ decision is not binding on the agency but instead is a RECOMMENDED decision that the agency can accept or reject and even if the judge rules in your favor, the agency will issue a FAD in opposition to his ruling.

God Bless whatever you choose to do.
M.I.
MindInquiring  
#12 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 2:25:46 AM(UTC)
MindInquiring

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Joined: 5/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 183

§ 1614.110 Final action by agencies.
(a) Final action by an agency following a decision by an administrative judge. When an administrative judge has issued a decision under §1614.109(b), (g) or (i), the agency shall take final action on the complaint by issuing a final order within 40 days of receipt of the hearing file and the administrative judge's decision. The final order shall notify the complainant whether or not the agency will fully implement the decision of the administrative judge and shall contain notice of the complainant's right to appeal to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the right to file a civil action in federal district court, the name of the proper defendant in any such lawsuit and the applicable time limits for appeals and lawsuits. If the final order does not fully implement the decision of the administrative judge, then the agency shall simultaneously file an appeal in accordance with §1614.403 and append a copy of the appeal to the final order. A copy of EEOC Form 573 shall be attached to the final order.
BIGPAPPA  
#13 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 4:48:21 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

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Joined: 2/15/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292

Is that very rarly does OFO overturn EEOC judge opinions especially if you win.

quote:
Originally posted by MindInquiring:
§ 1614.110 Final action by agencies.
(a) Final action by an agency following a decision by an administrative judge. When an administrative judge has issued a decision under §1614.109(b), (g) or (i), the agency shall take final action on the complaint by issuing a final order within 40 days of receipt of the hearing file and the administrative judge's decision. _The final order shall notify the complainant whether or not the agency will fully implement the decision of the administrative judge_ and shall contain notice of the complainant's right to appeal to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the right to file a civil action in federal district court, the name of the proper defendant in any such lawsuit and the applicable time limits for appeals and lawsuits. If the final order does not fully implement the decision of the administrative judge, then the agency shall simultaneously file an appeal in accordance with §1614.403 and append a copy of the appeal to the final order. A copy of EEOC Form 573 shall be attached to the final order.
BIGPAPPA  
#14 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 4:57:57 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

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Posts: 292

I assume you appealed....


And After you lost the appeal you took it court like you should have.

Once it gets to court it starts all over again from scratch so you at that point you have all this evidence of false statements that you can use.

The is not perfect I know there some not so good judges I had two that clearly said I would lose my case.

I understand what you are saying about that. You have to keep fighting.

quote:
Originally posted by MindInquiring:
While BIGPAPPA may be right, there are numerous pros and cons about everything. Since this is a board of written discussion, I think anyone that is trying to decide should probably have this conversion with someone with experience in person or by phone so he/she will have a clear picture of these pros and cons.

Based on my personal 20/20 hindsite observations is that if you happen to get a judge that is an agency person and s/he writes his decision in favor of the agency, it is very difficult to get it overturned, and I am not sure anymore if procedural error is enough to get them overturned anymore. I had a judge that I thought was a fair judge, but when he wrote he wrote his decision he clearly made excuses for the agency’s actions and inactions. Actually, the agency did not deny my allegation because their offense was so clear. Since the burden is on the complainant is almost unreachable I support my allegations here and in my claims with documents. For example; in the hearing (and documented in the transcript) the judge asked the manager leading questions that helping the manager with his testimony; the agency withheld documents that I requested under discovery so I filed several motions to compel stating the reasons I needed the documents, the judge never responded to my motions. In his decision the judge alleged that I had been a problem for the agency since 1989 (which is not true) but how big of a problem could I have been if the agency allowed me to remain an employee for 20 years (it is discrimination to keep an employee on board because they might file an EEO complaint), furthermore what I did or didn’t do did not have anything to do with the issues in the claim before him. This same judge would not allow the one and only agency witness that I requested to testify. In my first hearing, while I was trying to question the manager, the judge kept interrupting me and I never got a response to my question because he made it impossible. On the second day of my hearing I fainted and had to be removed by the paramedic and guess what, the judge proceeded with the hearing after I was removed. The agency submitted a hand written note which clearly described my supervisors harassment of me, obviously the manager forgot what he wrote on the note and changed the discription of the event when I questioned him under oath but guess what???? the judge found him credible - oh yeah, this is all in writing, the managers note and his testimony in the transcript.

I think before anyone reaches a decision or FAD or hearing, if there is a way to find out about the judges stats it would help and would speak volumes.

I think anyone caught between making a decision of FAD or hearing should be clear on the pros and cons and not depend or rely solely on the opinions on this board. This is decision that could possibly make or break your case. I would totally agree that a hearing was the way to go if I had not seen first hand what can happen.

My claim is very simple but - while under the judges jurisdiction, my claim was dragged out for 7 years, where if I had ask for a FAD, I believe I would have already been finished. In a FAD the agency lays out their defense and I refute it.

I'm not disagreeing with BIGPAPPA, I am just saying that based on the pros and cons one should look at both sides with clear eyes.

I must say that I am finding that more attorneys are beginning to go the FAD route, and in my personal opinion, to by pass the circus.

Whichever you do, make sure you follow all of the applicable timeframes and protocols, just because the agency is not required to do so does mean you have the same right.

_Also, keep in mind that the judges’ decision is not binding on the agency but instead is a RECOMMENDED decision that the agency can accept or reject and even if the judge rules in your favor, the agency will issue a FAD in opposition to his ruling. _

God Bless whatever you choose to do.
M.I.
MindInquiring  
#15 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 5:10:59 AM(UTC)
MindInquiring

Rank: Advisor

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Joined: 5/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 183

I don't understand what you mean BIGPAPPA.....I have ClEARLY stated that it is VERYhard to get an AJ's decision overturned - save clear procedural error. This is one of the main reasons that I have repeated that a FAD is sometimes the better way to go. Maybe you have misread some of my postings about FADs. However, I am surprised to read your statement since you are obviously very pro-hearing.

Again, virtually the only way to get an AJ's decision overturned is by procedural error.

Thanks
M.I.

quote:
Originally posted by BIGPAPPA:
Is that very rarly does OFO overturn EEOC judge opinions especially if you win.

quote:
Originally posted by MindInquiring:
§ 1614.110 Final action by agencies.
(a) Final action by an agency following a decision by an administrative judge. When an administrative judge has issued a decision under §1614.109(b), (g) or (i), the agency shall take final action on the complaint by issuing a final order within 40 days of receipt of the hearing file and the administrative judge's decision. _The final order shall notify the complainant whether or not the agency will fully implement the decision of the administrative judge_ and shall contain notice of the complainant's right to appeal to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the right to file a civil action in federal district court, the name of the proper defendant in any such lawsuit and the applicable time limits for appeals and lawsuits. If the final order does not fully implement the decision of the administrative judge, then the agency shall simultaneously file an appeal in accordance with §1614.403 and append a copy of the appeal to the final order. A copy of EEOC Form 573 shall be attached to the final order.

BIGPAPPA  
#16 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 5:36:16 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/15/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292

Mindinquiring

you make good points

I am working on blog that pertains to EEOC and federal employees with some perks that are not on federal soup I hope that one day you speak on it and share your experience there.

quote:
Originally posted by MindInquiring:
§ 1614.110 Final action by agencies.
(a) Final action by an agency following a decision by an administrative judge. When an administrative judge has issued a decision under §1614.109(b), (g) or (i), the agency shall take final action on the complaint by issuing a final order within 40 days of receipt of the hearing file and the administrative judge's decision. _The final order shall notify the complainant whether or not the agency will fully implement the decision of the administrative judge_ and shall contain notice of the complainant's right to appeal to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the right to file a civil action in federal district court, the name of the proper defendant in any such lawsuit and the applicable time limits for appeals and lawsuits. If the final order does not fully implement the decision of the administrative judge, then the agency shall simultaneously file an appeal in accordance with §1614.403 and append a copy of the appeal to the final order. A copy of EEOC Form 573 shall be attached to the final order.
freeageless  
#17 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 5:45:20 AM(UTC)
freeageless

Rank: Senior Member

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I agree with BIGPAPPA regarding the hearing for a number of reasons. First, there is always a very slim chance that after the hearing, the AJ may rule in your favor. Second, you have locked in the witness testimony, and you may use their testimony to impeach the agency witnesses in federal court. Third, The transcript is free at the EEOC level, you have to pay for it in federal court. Fourth, you can use that hearing testimony to substitute for depositions which tend to be very expensive.
BIGPAPPA  
#18 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 5:49:24 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/15/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292

I would really like yalls input on it... RIght now i am having problems with RSS feeder I want the EEOC cases to come up on on it. right now its http://federalemployees2.blogspot.com/

quote:
Originally posted by fairness6:
I agree with BIGPAPPA regarding the hearing for a number of reasons. First, there is always a very slim chance that after the hearing, the AJ may rule in your favor. Second, you have locked in the witness testimony, and you may use their testimony to impeach the agency witnesses in federal court. Third, The transcript is free at the EEOC level, you have to pay for it in federal court. Fourth, you can use that hearing testimony to substitute for depositions which tend to be very expensive.
BIGPAPPA  
#19 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 5:52:19 AM(UTC)
BIGPAPPA

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/15/2009(UTC)
Posts: 292

They want the FAD because its indeed fast and they want to get paid fast!!!

quote:
Originally posted by fairness6:
I agree with BIGPAPPA regarding the hearing for a number of reasons. First, there is always a very slim chance that after the hearing, the AJ may rule in your favor. Second, you have locked in the witness testimony, and you may use their testimony to impeach the agency witnesses in federal court. Third, The transcript is free at the EEOC level, you have to pay for it in federal court. Fourth, you can use that hearing testimony to substitute for depositions which tend to be very expensive.
MindInquiring  
#20 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2009 6:15:32 AM(UTC)
MindInquiring

Rank: Advisor

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/20/2009(UTC)
Posts: 183

Fairness, I agree with both you and BIG. The choice to go either way really depends alot on the circumstances of the complainant. I am disabled and the length of time (7 years) has had an adverse effect on my condition. This long length of time during the hearing process has been the fault of 2 administrative judges, which in hindsite i should have requested a FAD because I was not getting anywhere. I sacrificed all those years for a transcript and other little goodies that may or may not work in Federal court.

In my case the transcript is loaded with witness testimony that overwhelmingly proved that the agency managers lied, contradicted themselves, and eachother, and are guilty of what I accuse them of - but the judge found them to be credible, made excuses for their actions, etc... anyway and ruled in their favor.

I just dont know that the bureaucratic layer called AJ is worth it. Roll Eyes

I.M.



quote:
Originally posted by fairness6:
I agree with BIGPAPPA regarding the hearing for a number of reasons. First, there is always a very slim chance that after the hearing, the AJ may rule in your favor. Second, you have locked in the witness testimony, and you may use their testimony to impeach the agency witnesses in federal court. Third, The transcript is free at the EEOC level, you have to pay for it in federal court. Fourth, you can use that hearing testimony to substitute for depositions which tend to be very expensive.
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