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nobby  
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:57:14 PM(UTC)
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Warning: short rant ahead. Disapprove
 
It seems like your average retiree who joins Civil Service gets no special consideration when the axe starts falling.  Can someone please confirm my understanding of how the OPM categorizes me as a non-veteran for RIF purposes? 
 
Here's my status:
 
- Retired in Oct 2007 w/ 22+ years AD military service 
- With Civil Service since Aug 2008
- No combat-related disabilities (CRD)
 
It appears that per OPM rules, retirees who served 20+yrs, but don't have CRDs' are not considered veterans.  However, those who served less than 20 ARE considered vets during a RIF, even if they don't have CRDs.  I would have thought ALL veterans would receive at least some minor preference during major jobs cuts, whether they are collecting a mil ret check or not!  
 
I hope I have interpreted OPM's policy wrong.  I certainly hope the policy isn't based on the theory that since I'm receiving military retirement pay I'll be "okay" if they fire me. 
 
To me, military retirement income should not be a consideration for future employment.  I mean, wouldn't it be unreasonable to dicate a civilian's (one who has never served) future based on their 401K, bank balance, or investment portfolio? I don't see how mil ret pay is any different.  
 
So what am I missing>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Knight  
#2 Posted : Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:30:59 PM(UTC)
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I am in the same boat. It is leftovers from the old "no double dipping" requirement. They do not count military retirees as a Vet since we keep our retire pay no matter what.
 
This is something we should try to get COngress to change since they made the original rules for this.
TheFrederalGovt  
#3 Posted : Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:31:35 PM(UTC)
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nobby wrote:
Warning: short rant ahead. Disapprove
 
It seems like your average retiree who joins Civil Service gets no special consideration when the axe starts falling.  Can someone please confirm my understanding of how the OPM categorizes me as a non-veteran for RIF purposes? 
 
Here's my status:
 
- Retired in Oct 2007 w/ 22+ years AD military service 
- With Civil Service since Aug 2008
- No combat-related disabilities (CRD)
 
It appears that per OPM rules, retirees who served 20+yrs, but don't have CRDs' are not considered veterans.  However, those who served less than 20 ARE considered vets during a RIF, even if they don't have CRDs.  I would have thought ALL veterans would receive at least some minor preference during major jobs cuts, whether they are collecting a mil ret check or not!  
 
I hope I have interpreted OPM's policy wrong.  I certainly hope the policy isn't based on the theory that since I'm receiving military retirement pay I'll be "okay" if they fire me. 
 
To me, military retirement income should not be a consideration for future employment.  I mean, wouldn't it be unreasonable to dicate a civilian's (one who has never served) future based on their 401K, bank balance, or investment portfolio? I don't see how mil ret pay is any different.  
 
So what am I missing>
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
please see knights post Big smile
TheFrederalGovt2011-11-14 10:23:23
Shaudius  
#4 Posted : Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:36:57 PM(UTC)
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Your interpretation of the regulations is in fact correct. The rest of your post is more of a policy statement, so I dont really know what to tell you, I could tell you what I think the reason for the policy is, but thats really not going to satisfy you I would wager and would most likely spark a debate on Veteran's Preference.
Knight  
#5 Posted : Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:41:36 PM(UTC)
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Wrong rules Fred. The items people need to be reading for RIF purposes are
 
 

12. Determining Retention Standing-Veterans' Preference for Retired Members of the Armed Forces

By law (i.e., the Dual Compensation Act of 1964, as presently codified in section 3501(a) of title 5, United States Code), a retired member of the Armed Forces is a veteran under the RIF regulations only if the employee meets one of the following three conditions:

  1. The Armed Forces retirement (without regard to  benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs) is directly based upon a combat‑incurred disability or injury; or
  2. The Armed Forces retirement is based upon less than 20 years of active duty; or
  3. The employee has been working for the Government since November 30, 1964, without a break in service of more than 30 days.

A regular retired mil member is not a VET for RIF purposes unless one of the 3 above items apply. So the OP and I are not Vets for RIF purposes.

 
 
Shaudius  
#6 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 2:25:27 AM(UTC)
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Knight wrote:
I am in the same boat. It is leftovers from the old "no double dipping" requirement. They do not count military retirees as a Vet since we keep our retire pay no matter what.
 
This is something we should try to get COngress to change since they made the original rules for this.
 
Okay, I'll bite. I think that this has less to do with no double dipping and more to do with the reasons Preference is given. The original purpose of preference was to compensate Veterans for their time away from the traditional workforce and to provide extra benefit to those who have borne the extra sacrifice of disability. If you've retired after 20+ years, you've made the military your career, therefore the first reason of giving Veterans Preference, that the lack of time to gain the skills that would have been gained in the private sector is not an issue, because the veterans who are military retirees have retired after 20+ years. This retirement means that for government purposes you have been deemed to be leaving the workforce(hence the retired military pay), it is only through circumstance that you are of an age that you are still able to work after 20+ years of military service.  
 
The second reason to compensate for the extra sacrifice of disability remains.
 
Therefore it makes logical sense from that perspective to extend the general preference rules to RIFs, which is in effect what has been done.
 
Whether or not this is the correct policy is a completely different issue, but in the context of the stated reason(at least by OPM) as to why preference is given it makes logical sense, despite whether it is good policy or not.
Shaudius2011-11-14 10:32:40
oldnavysalt  
#7 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 2:42:42 AM(UTC)
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Do any of you see a lot of RIF's coming?
Health Systems Specialist<br />Veterans Health Administration<br />U.S. Navy/Senior Chief/Retired
Knight  
#8 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 4:10:22 AM(UTC)
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Yes. The AF has to drop something like 3,000 right now with more expected.
Copper  
#9 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 4:12:41 AM(UTC)
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oldnavysalt wrote:


Do any of you see a lot of RIF's coming?
 
In the mid-90's there was a "perfect storm" that resulted in some agencies being abolished and/or consolidated and more than a handful of military bases closed.  RIFs were seemingly everywhere.  The underlying reasons were money and politics.  Sound familiar?  Present circumstances make those of the 90's seem like the "good old days".  I don't know if "a lot of RIF's" will happen, but I wouldn't bet against it.  At a minimum I wouldn't be surprised to see a hiring freeze, deeper budget cuts and at least hear serious chatter of agency consolidation and some office closures. 
Knight  
#10 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 4:20:45 AM(UTC)
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But Shaudius my 5 or 10 points are from my VA disability the same as a 4 year Vet. A 4 year Vet gets to count those 4 years towards many benefits like leave and RIF where I do not get to count my 24 years. The original law used to expressly mention double dipping and in the 60's you could not draw military pension and work for the GOV. That main action was removed but some of the little stupid restrictions remain.
 
It does not bug me that much. I believe that I am well situated to get another job if it comes to a RIF. I do have those skill sets that can be used elsewhere.
 
It just saddens me to see the words "Veteran for RIF? - NO"
SF18C  
#11 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 9:01:20 AM(UTC)
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Knight wrote:
 
It just saddens me to see the words "Veteran for RIF? - NO"
 
Yeah but it only hurts a little and even less on the first of the month!Big smile
Newgrad  
#12 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 1:53:47 PM(UTC)
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Shaudius wrote:
The original purpose of preference was to compensate Veterans for their time away from the traditional workforce and to provide extra benefit to those who have borne the extra sacrifice of disability. If you've retired after 20+ years, you've made the military your career, therefore the first reason of giving Veterans Preference, that the lack of time to gain the skills that would have been gained in the private sector is not an issue, because the veterans who are military retirees have retired after 20+ years.


One thing you have to keep in mind when you give a group "preference," is that over time, these groups receiving "preference" will continue to want more no matter how much you give them. You see this with people mooching off various welfare systems in this country. They will continue to want more handouts until the system bankrupts itself. Then when the system finally is bankrupt (like it is now), and the welfare handouts start getting significant cuts (what will happen in the next couple of years), things will get really ugly because you are taking the crack pipe away from the crack addict.

Welfare is a drug, and welfare recipients can't get enough of it.      
I'm here to set the record straight, tell the truth about federal hiring, and to expose things for what they really are. -Newgrad
simchief  
#13 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 9:55:49 PM(UTC)
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Just to refresh our information, here is OPM fact sheet; from USAJOBS site.
 
simchief2011-11-15 06:03:00
I'll be shoveling along: <br />Digger O'Dell
IT-Fed  
#14 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 10:59:13 PM(UTC)
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Knight wrote:
But Shaudius my 5 or 10 points are from my VA disability the same as a 4 year Vet. A 4 year Vet gets to count those 4 years towards many benefits like leave and RIF where I do not get to count my 24 years. The original law used to expressly mention double dipping and in the 60's you could not draw military pension and work for the GOV. That main action was removed but some of the little stupid restrictions remain.
 
It does not bug me that much. I believe that I am well situated to get another job if it comes to a RIF. I do have those skill sets that can be used elsewhere.
 
It just saddens me to see the words "Veteran for RIF? - NO"
One clarification on the "4 year Vet (getting) to count those 4 years..." - unless the 4 years was certain reserve component time or the service was before 1957, the 4 year vet had to pay a deposit to receive credit for the service.
Shaudius  
#15 Posted : Monday, November 14, 2011 11:15:52 PM(UTC)
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Knight wrote:
But Shaudius my 5 or 10 points are from my VA disability the same as a 4 year Vet. A 4 year Vet gets to count those 4 years towards many benefits like leave and RIF where I do not get to count my 24 years. The original law used to expressly mention double dipping and in the 60's you could not draw military pension and work for the GOV. That main action was removed but some of the little stupid restrictions remain.

It does not bug me that much. I believe that I am well situated to get another job if it comes to a RIF. I do have those skill sets that can be used elsewhere.

It just saddens me to see the words "Veteran for RIF? - NO"

Well if you were to receive points because of your VA disability then you would in fact be treated the same as a 4 year vet for RIF purposes. 22 year vet retired with a disability(rated by the VA anyway) gets RIF preference same as a 4 year vet as I understand it.

Also military retirees can buy back military time, while perhaps not worth it for the military retiree, the process seems to be the same. So you could get the benefits of your military service for civilian retirement if you so chose, in fact you have more options than the 4 year active duty person because you can make a choice between still drawing your military retirement payment as well as a FERS retirement payment.

As far as the leave accrual is concerned, it is true that by statute military retirees are treated differently than simply separated former active duty persons. This issue is made especially difficult because only service in a declared war is creditable for leave accrual purposes. While we have fought in many wars since WWII, they have all to my knowledge been undeclared formally. Perhaps the best course of action as a start would be to push for the changing of the law to extend to the same periods that grant preference in the first place(5-pt) instead of just declared wars.

I'm not sure what other benefits a former active duty civilian employee gets that a retired military person does not, the only three benefits to veterans as far as I know once they are on boarded is RIF protection, creditable leave accrual and military buyback.

You are a retired Veteran and no one can take that away from you.

martyb  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, November 15, 2011 12:21:43 AM(UTC)
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Throwing a little more fuel on the fire...if you are retired from the guard or reserve, you're still considered a vet for rif, I believe. 
Forum trolls to 0%
Out of the Hole  
#17 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:27:18 AM(UTC)
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martyb wrote:
Throwing a little more fuel on the fire...if you are
retired from the guard or reserve, you're still considered a vet for
rif, I believe. 


You are correct.  When I transferred out of the military technician program to competitive service, my record initially said "no" to vet RIF preference.  I had my record corrective after a volley of emails with regulatory cites and resending DD214s.

Out of the Hole2011-11-20 08:33:14
johnlv  
#18 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:58:38 AM(UTC)
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My SF-50 reflects my VA rating of 30% or more but does not indicate RIF preference .  I researched the OPM Vet guide and believe the information is corect on me.  My retirement is based on 20 years of active duty.
 
From OPM RIF Guide

Retirees below the rank of major (or equivalent) get preference if:

  • Retirement from the uniformed service is based on disability that either resulted from injury or disease received in the line of duty as a direct result of armed conflict, or was caused by an instrumentality of war and was incurred in the line of duty during a period of war as defined in section 101(11) of title 38, U. S. C. "Period of war" includes World War II, the Korean conflict, Vietnam era, the Persian Gulf War, or the period beginning on the date of any future declaration of war by the Congress and ending on the date prescribed by Presidential proclamation or concurrent resolution of the Congress; or
  • The employee's retired pay from a uniformed service is not based on 20 or more years of full-time active service, regardless of when performed but not including periods of active duty for training; or
  • The employee has been continuously employed in a position covered by the 5 U.S.C. chapter 35 since November 30, 1964, without a break in service of more than 30 days.
acivilservant  
#19 Posted : Sunday, November 20, 2011 1:05:28 AM(UTC)
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22 plus years AD (sorry I do not have a computer):

Because I've gone from corporate America, to owning/designing my own corporate culture resembling a military structure (almost two decade), and then to Fed work, I fully support former military being granted hiring points. Unlike those without military lifestyle experience, former military individuals understand how to make the big wheels of the federal system turn smoothly. 

Perhaps we need uniforms for all federal workers, to help those posting anti-military hiring points see the BiG PICTURE, i.e., in fact the Feds are a military organization. 
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