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madees  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 12:53:16 AM(UTC)
madees

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My overseas command is strictly enforcing the 5 year rotation policy and will require me to gon PPP 6 months prior to my 5 year limit. My question is, "Can I apply for a position (at the overseas command)position will be a promotion for me 7 months prior to my going on PPP. The position start date will be during the same month of my requirement to go on PPP. Can the interviewing official legally disqualify me from the list of elgibles. Would this be a discriminatory action. I know I would not be able to fulfill a 1 or 2 year assignment because of my restriction to the 5 year rule but if I applied prior to placement on the PPP list would this not qualify me to the upgraded position and I then would go on PPP at the upgraded position rate. Help Everyone!
GrantLee  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:58:21 AM(UTC)
GrantLee

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Madees

I was forced into PPP a little over 5 years ago. I tried everything, I could think of, to get it so I could stay, to no avail. You can apply to any position you wish, as long as you don't have orders for another assignement, but you have to understand that you are at the 5 year mark and if the gaining command wants you bad enough, they can place you in the 18% - 23% of their command that can be over 5 years. This is their call alone and it has nothing to do with discrimination, favoritism, or anything of the like. If the gaining employer wants you, bad enough, they have "exceptions to the policy" that are at their fingertips and can excise them at any time. Keep trying to stay, if that is what you want, becasue it will cost you a fortune to come back to CONUS.

Best of Luck
mudpie  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 8:56:43 PM(UTC)
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You can apply, but you will be initially screened for lack of retainability. Your DEROS has to exceed the position length.

PPP is a **** shoot, one offer take it or be separated.

I was in the same position last summer, except I found a job in the US that would pay for the PCS. I can already reapply to PCS back to Europe. It is all politics. I know of people that retired from the military in Europe, returned to the US for one day, then got on a plane back to Europe to fill their old position, but as a GS civilian. They left their family in Europe and kept their residence during the transition.
djapalucci  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:56:42 PM(UTC)
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Horror stories like these are the best reason to stay put in CONUS! IMO, a promotion is not worth the uncertainty, even with "return rights". The command I work for won't provide reimbursement for expenses in selling a home, or house hunting on return, if one takes an overseas position. I'd only consider it if I were within 3 years of retirement...
30yrCivArmyFed  
#5 Posted : Monday, March 19, 2007 5:58:59 AM(UTC)
30yrCivArmyFed

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Madees

You can apply for the higher grade position. If selected they can not put you on PPP, you have to be able to fulfill 1 year in the position when promoted. If they select you, you can not go on PPP when required, they have to agree to extend your time that much, so can be a dealbreaker legally. We deal with many of these issues in Germany.

The other person is right they can keep up to 25 percent over the five year rule. Right now I have not heard of too many places strictly enforcing in Germany except for the Marshall Center, as it is so difficult to hire now, it takes about 7 months for Army positions to go through the Commanding General for approval.

You only get one offer under PPP, but depending on your series and job it may take up to two years to get picked up, unless you are a 2210 computer series. We had people on PPP for 3.5 years who wrote their resume like a child so they would not get picked up.

It is game, very political sometimes. There are ties through the good ole boy network, the unit served in network, the married to German connection (here), and what connections you have made while overseas. I found a whole new culture here and two things never to talk about are LQA (some do not get) and the 5 year rule (never be against it).
mudpie  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, March 20, 2007 8:42:30 PM(UTC)
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I was under the impression that if you were not picked up under PPP by the end of your tour or the 5 year mark, you were separated. Do you have any CFR or OPM references that prevent an agency from separation if you are not picked up?

Seems like a loop hole. What would prevent anyone from writing a poor resume to prevent an assignment and extending well beyond the 5 year mark?
kathru  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:20:18 AM(UTC)
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The DoD Priority Placement Program (PPP) regs vary depending on particular category of PPP registrants. For instance there are some differences between being registered as a result of losing your job due to a RIF, and that of returning stateside after an overseas tour of duty. In the case of an overseas returnee, employees usually can stay in PPP as long as a valid offer is not received. 'Valid Offer' is the key phrase. Whether its 'valid' or not is determined by the losing and gaining HR offices, as are the criteria as to whether the PPP registrant is appropriately 'qualified' for the job being offered. Of course, this process depends in large part on the strength of the registrant's resume. (By the way, there's no limit on how many pages an employee's resume in PPP contains- it can be a 1/2 page, 10 pages, 20 pages and so on). Applicants can also dispute the qualification criteria and challenge the job offer. But a competent (and honest) HR office should be able to mitigate the few cases where that may hold true and if HR is really doing their job in screening qualifications accurately, those cases would be kept to a minimum. And, when employees are riding the PPP system for years on end, I fault the HRO. They should be monitoring status on whether or not the resume is generating any job hits. If the resume is not resulting in any valid offers, then HR should ensure that the employee receives proper guidance on resume content and provides HR with an adequate rewrite. When I was overseas, the HR office at my location had no such checks and balances in place. They just let those employees who didn't want to return to the USA ride the PPP system as long as they wanted, no questions asked. Usually, these employees were management cronies as well. Some of these employees freely bragged about how their 'friends' in HR were 'covering' them in the PPP and shielding them from getting a valid job hit. So, PPP registration can be a smoke & mirror filled sham, as there certainly are little tricks to manipulate the system.
To this day, there are 2 people at the overseas base where I worked who have been in the PPP for at least 15 years- and have never yet received a 'valid' job offer. Neither one of them is in an unusual or unique job series, and all performance ratings have been Fully Successful or better (another requirement for PPP registration). They should have been placed in a job long ago. These and many others overseas ride the PPP for years, in order to get as much mileage as they can from their overseas assignment. Many have been overseas so long that - I kid you not- they don't consider themselves American anymore, and will openly state that they 'could never live in the USA again' - it's like a foreign land to them because they've lived abroad so long. Ah, but they sure don't mind having good ole red-white & blue Uncle Sam (and we taxpayers) pay their federal salaries while they're living it up over there!
I worked w/ several folks who had not even been back to the US for a short visit for over 20 years. One such colleague told me that he didn't travel back to the US because he couldn't stand America. If his family from the USA wanted to see him, they had to fly overseas for a visit, as he would never voluntarily go back to America. He wouldn't even return stateside for family funerals, weddings, etc. As far as I'm concerned, people like that should relinquish their US citizenship. Oh, but than they wouldn't be able to reap the perks of being on Uncle Sam's payroll abroad, and in many countries it would be difficult if not impossible for them to find employment on the host nation economy even at a menial wage rate...
I registered in the PPP last year after my 5 yrs overseas was up, submitted a 15-page resume and rec'd a valid job offer in less than 2 weeks time. Most PPP registrants who submit a thorough and strong resume will get placed fairly quickly. I've known it to happen time and time again. At least for those who are proactive and willing to move on in order to let someone else have a turn at an overseas assignment. Which is a key objective of the DoD overseas'5-Year ROTATION Policy' to begin with.

[This message was edited by katy on March 28, 2007 at 03:35 PM.]

[This message was edited by katy on March 28, 2007 at 03:36 PM.]

[This message was edited by katy on March 28, 2007 at 03:38 PM.]
webmaster6  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2008 5:56:00 AM(UTC)
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It is my understanding that for determining LQA eligibility OCONUS, that overseas tours that are unaccompanied count as time in the United States.

Does this mean if I Have lived in the United States 6 months, take an 12 month unaccompanied tour downrange, PCS back to the US for 6 months, for determining 5 Year Rule and LQA eligibility, I essentially have 24 months in the United States if I should want to accept a position in say -- Germany?

Anybody have a definitive reference that provides the definition for 12 months for the 5 year rule. I have the reference that states this for LQA eligibility.
mudpie  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2008 8:40:03 PM(UTC)
mudpie

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The Army runs the show in Europe. All 4 services report to EUCOM. The has been a DoD Policy since 1966 limiting DoD Civilian tours to 5 years- with exceptions. The following is the guideline:
Army Europe Regulation 690-300.301. Each service has their own supplement as well.

You must have been hired from a US postal address to fully meet the LQA requirement- again there are exceptions. If you can prove you had a US address for 52 weeks Wink, and answer the phone when HR calls Wink, then chances are they will not verify if you have physically been living in the US.

I know of several people that have a US address, live in Germany, and used a US tel. number with call forwarding to circumvent the intent. Then they returned to the US to pick up the govt sponsored tickets and HHG shipment just to fly back to Germany, never leaving their German apartment/house. Go figure.
mrp  
#10 Posted : Friday, January 11, 2008 12:29:11 PM(UTC)
mrp

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What about Automated Selection and Referral System (ASARS)? During Civilian Personnel management Course this was discussed but only briefly. There are a few requirements and the guidance is thin. I find myself in this position now. GS-NSPS-GS non supervisory. Im looking to use ASARS to stop the new NSPS position posted at my base today. Yes they converted my NSPS supervisory position back to GS non-supervisor and then posted a new NSPS supervisory position.
swiszyns  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2008 7:26:16 PM(UTC)
swiszyns

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for your reference on the 5-year rule -- read all about it
http://www.per.hqusareur.army.mil/CPD/Overseas_Tours_and_Rotation/Default.aspx
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