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The Department of Defense (DoD) is charged with coordinating and supervising all agencies and functions of the government relating directly to national security and the United States armed forces. The mission of the Department of Defense is to provide the military forces needed to deter war and to protect the security of our country.

The Department of Defense is America's oldest and largest government agency -tracing its roots back to pre-Revolutionary times. Today, the Department is not only in charge of the military, but it also employs a civilian force of thousands. With over 1.4 million men and women on active duty, and 718,000 civilian personnel, DoD is the nation's largest employer. Another 1.1 million serve in the National Guard and Reserve forces. More than 2 million military retirees and their family members receive benefits.

Perhaps you are working for the DoD or interested in working for the DoD. Here is a forum to share your experience with the DoD.
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CivSer67  
#41 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 1:50:45 AM(UTC)
CivSer67

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Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
frankgonzalez  
#42 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 3:04:35 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

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Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
CivSer67  
#43 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 3:13:57 AM(UTC)
CivSer67

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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
frankgonzalez  
#44 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 4:58:17 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

Rank: Senior Member

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Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
CivSer67  
#45 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 5:11:12 AM(UTC)
CivSer67

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/20/2015(UTC)
Posts: 334
Man
Germany

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 26 time(s) in 23 post(s)
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


That is perception/interpretation... the education comes from the person who made the statement to the one who misunderstood it! You're are talking about criticizing something, I did not you made a definitive statement. Where do you have to disclose, it depends on the job and the interview. As a supervisor, I can tailor a interview to suit the needs of a job and at the end I can ask the question "Are all your statements a truth to the best of your knowledge?" that is where the false official statement comes into play. Trust me, I have been doing this for the past 15 years...nothing illegal about it!
frankgonzalez  
#46 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 8:22:33 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 4,638

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Was thanked: 792 time(s) in 618 post(s)
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


That is perception/interpretation... the education comes from the person who made the statement to the one who misunderstood it! You're are talking about criticizing something, I did not you made a definitive statement. Where do you have to disclose, it depends on the job and the interview. As a supervisor, I can tailor a interview to suit the needs of a job and at the end I can ask the question "Are all your statements a truth to the best of your knowledge?" that is where the false official statement comes into play. Trust me, I have been doing this for the past 15 years...nothing illegal about it!
And the moment you ask a pregnancy or medical related question (beyond a generic "are you able to do these functions?"), you have violated the law, and your applicant gets to come to my office if they are not selected for the position (for either refusing to answer the illegal question, or if they did answer it!)...and then your General Counsel gets a little upset about having to defend an illegal action (no defence and then the agency enters settlement talks very early). Unless, of course, you are willing to violate core values and lie you didn't ask a medical or pregnancy related question in the interview!

As for being offended...what if they understood exactly what you said but still found it offensive? Even after you explained what you meant? Are they still wrong to be offended? Who decides when someone can be offended? The offender? Or the offended? Go on...keep digging....

I work in a job where impact outweighs intent every day. In fact, a neutral policy can be found to have discriminatory impact and so violate the law. There is a reason why certain questions are illegal in job interviews. But go ahead and ask them if you want...I have several several numbers for good federal Labor law attorneys...they would love a case where a manager says he or she can ask whatever they want in a job interview! (I'd say Tully Rinckey, Gilbert Employment Law Group for a couple of really good law firms to start off the list..)

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
thanks 1 user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.
A1c on 4/23/2018(UTC)
A1c  
#47 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 10:18:49 AM(UTC)
A1c

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You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!


Ummm, "NEVER did I flat out state that I am going to mention it?" where did that understanding come from. I said , I think I will call them this week...my question wasn't to hide but the timing as to when I should tell them ( posted in here the reason why I waited, the sensitive pregnancy and my doctor's appointment). It's plain and simple. You went off assuming I WILL NEVER tell HR. That right there is a matter of how you perceived my question. You can't admit you misunderstood my question. So yes, when I say CIVIL, you weren't, especially when I read all your responses to other posters here. You can't control what others think or how others perceived your posts but I think you come off assuming and that is why people thought you were a troll. I think there is a better way to approach it. With the knowledge and position you have, I am very sure you know what you are talking about. Going on about it and not coming across you know better is another thing. How about saying it is best to tell them ASAP...because there are instances that an offer can be rescinded...Don't go about talking I am lying or giving false statements. You don't know the whole scenario. You have been given very limited information.

Edited by user Monday, April 23, 2018 10:28:07 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

A1c  
#48 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 10:26:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


Frank, there is a portion asking to disclose disability but I do not remember being worded as medical condition(It was a long paper to fill out so I will most likely forget lol). It gave me options to choose what disability I may have but, it did not include pregnancy. Thank you and I will be sure to contact you if I need legal help!
frankgonzalez  
#49 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 10:36:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


Frank, there is a portion asking to disclose disability but I do not remember being worded as medical condition(It was a long paper to fill out so I will most likely forget lol). It gave me options to choose what disability I may have but, it did not include pregnancy. Thank you and I will be sure to contact you if I need legal help!
That form you speak of is optional (it is just a data collection to allow offices like mine to look at demographics and see how many people are claiming a disability work at the agency as part of a report every agency provides to the EEOC)....one is not required to disclose a medical condition or disability.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
CivSer67  
#50 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 8:47:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!


Ummm, "NEVER did I flat out state that I am going to mention it?" where did that understanding come from. I said , I think I will call them this week...my question wasn't to hide but the timing as to when I should tell them ( posted in here the reason why I waited, the sensitive pregnancy and my doctor's appointment). It's plain and simple. You went off assuming I WILL NEVER tell HR. That right there is a matter of how you perceived my question. You can't admit you misunderstood my question. So yes, when I say CIVIL, you weren't, especially when I read all your responses to other posters here. You can't control what others think or how others perceived your posts but I think you come off assuming and that is why people thought you were a troll. I think there is a better way to approach it. With the knowledge and position you have, I am very sure you know what you are talking about. Going on about it and not coming across you know better is another thing. How about saying it is best to tell them ASAP...because there are instances that an offer can be rescinded...Don't go about talking I am lying or giving false statements. You don't know the whole scenario. You have been given very limited information.


C'mon.. don't play ignorant here. You stated you were thinking, which we all know means you could waver either way! I never assumed a thing, as my first statement was to inform you of your best option to come forth and disclose it.
CivSer67  
#51 Posted : Monday, April 23, 2018 8:58:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


That is perception/interpretation... the education comes from the person who made the statement to the one who misunderstood it! You're are talking about criticizing something, I did not you made a definitive statement. Where do you have to disclose, it depends on the job and the interview. As a supervisor, I can tailor a interview to suit the needs of a job and at the end I can ask the question "Are all your statements a truth to the best of your knowledge?" that is where the false official statement comes into play. Trust me, I have been doing this for the past 15 years...nothing illegal about it!
And the moment you ask a pregnancy or medical related question (beyond a generic "are you able to do these functions?"), you have violated the law, and your applicant gets to come to my office if they are not selected for the position (for either refusing to answer the illegal question, or if they did answer it!)...and then your General Counsel gets a little upset about having to defend an illegal action (no defence and then the agency enters settlement talks very early). Unless, of course, you are willing to violate core values and lie you didn't ask a medical or pregnancy related question in the interview!

As for being offended...what if they understood exactly what you said but still found it offensive? Even after you explained what you meant? Are they still wrong to be offended? Who decides when someone can be offended? The offender? Or the offended? Go on...keep digging....

I work in a job where impact outweighs intent every day. In fact, a neutral policy can be found to have discriminatory impact and so violate the law. There is a reason why certain questions are illegal in job interviews. But go ahead and ask them if you want...I have several several numbers for good federal Labor law attorneys...they would love a case where a manager says he or she can ask whatever they want in a job interview! (I'd say Tully Rinckey, Gilbert Employment Law Group for a couple of really good law firms to start off the list..)



Well.. what can I say, you must be right and the 12 others across the globe who do the same job and ask the same tailored interview questions that I do must be wrong. Also I guess the 4 General Managers that supervise us are in violation of your rules as well and to top it of the SES that oversees the DOS program that we run is guilty to since she approves of how we run and do business, I mean she signed off on our interview process right, so she is the guilty one here? Maybe those questions are illegal when it comes to Secretary or kitchen work, but when it comes to the protection of heads of state, they are not illegal at all!. Now back to your assuming again.... nowhere did I state that I could ask whatever I want, I stated I could tailor the interview to suit the needs of the job, that is a huge difference and I'm sorry that you can't understand that, but it is not my place to educate you on that either. Now, who decides on who is offended, that is an easy one, but if I have to explain it to you well then maybe you shouldn't be a supervisor?
A1c  
#52 Posted : Tuesday, April 24, 2018 8:04:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!


Ummm, "NEVER did I flat out state that I am going to mention it?" where did that understanding come from. I said , I think I will call them this week...my question wasn't to hide but the timing as to when I should tell them ( posted in here the reason why I waited, the sensitive pregnancy and my doctor's appointment). It's plain and simple. You went off assuming I WILL NEVER tell HR. That right there is a matter of how you perceived my question. You can't admit you misunderstood my question. So yes, when I say CIVIL, you weren't, especially when I read all your responses to other posters here. You can't control what others think or how others perceived your posts but I think you come off assuming and that is why people thought you were a troll. I think there is a better way to approach it. With the knowledge and position you have, I am very sure you know what you are talking about. Going on about it and not coming across you know better is another thing. How about saying it is best to tell them ASAP...because there are instances that an offer can be rescinded...Don't go about talking I am lying or giving false statements. You don't know the whole scenario. You have been given very limited information.


C'mon.. don't play ignorant here. You stated you were thinking, which we all know means you could waver either way! I never assumed a thing, as my first statement was to inform you of your best option to come forth and disclose it.


Oh no, I'm not playing ignorant at all. I knew exactly why I am here for and why I asked the question. You can go off assuming I can't help you with that. Then again, assumption begets assumption. You assume too much, you accuse people of assuming as well when they respond to you. What goes around comes around! You have a good day Sir!
A1c  
#53 Posted : Tuesday, April 24, 2018 8:07:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


That is perception/interpretation... the education comes from the person who made the statement to the one who misunderstood it! You're are talking about criticizing something, I did not you made a definitive statement. Where do you have to disclose, it depends on the job and the interview. As a supervisor, I can tailor a interview to suit the needs of a job and at the end I can ask the question "Are all your statements a truth to the best of your knowledge?" that is where the false official statement comes into play. Trust me, I have been doing this for the past 15 years...nothing illegal about it!
And the moment you ask a pregnancy or medical related question (beyond a generic "are you able to do these functions?"), you have violated the law, and your applicant gets to come to my office if they are not selected for the position (for either refusing to answer the illegal question, or if they did answer it!)...and then your General Counsel gets a little upset about having to defend an illegal action (no defence and then the agency enters settlement talks very early). Unless, of course, you are willing to violate core values and lie you didn't ask a medical or pregnancy related question in the interview!

As for being offended...what if they understood exactly what you said but still found it offensive? Even after you explained what you meant? Are they still wrong to be offended? Who decides when someone can be offended? The offender? Or the offended? Go on...keep digging....

I work in a job where impact outweighs intent every day. In fact, a neutral policy can be found to have discriminatory impact and so violate the law. There is a reason why certain questions are illegal in job interviews. But go ahead and ask them if you want...I have several several numbers for good federal Labor law attorneys...they would love a case where a manager says he or she can ask whatever they want in a job interview! (I'd say Tully Rinckey, Gilbert Employment Law Group for a couple of really good law firms to start off the list..)



Well.. what can I say, you must be right and the 12 others across the globe who do the same job and ask the same tailored interview questions that I do must be wrong. Also I guess the 4 General Managers that supervise us are in violation of your rules as well and to top it of the SES that oversees the DOS program that we run is guilty to since she approves of how we run and do business, I mean she signed off on our interview process right, so she is the guilty one here? Maybe those questions are illegal when it comes to Secretary or kitchen work, but when it comes to the protection of heads of state, they are not illegal at all!. Now back to your assuming again.... nowhere did I state that I could ask whatever I want, I stated I could tailor the interview to suit the needs of the job, that is a huge difference and I'm sorry that you can't understand that, but it is not my place to educate you on that either. Now, who decides on who is offended, that is an easy one, but if I have to explain it to you well then maybe you shouldn't be a supervisor?



This is just going to be a vicious circle with no end in sight and a conversation that will exist for the sake of whose argument is better.
CivSer67  
#54 Posted : Sunday, April 29, 2018 9:40:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: A1c Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
Yes pregnancy can and is cause for rescinding the job offer. it is completely up to the hiring official to justify why it is so... I have done it in the past and it was all completely legal. be very careful in what you are doing, failure to disclose changes in mental, or physical nature is also grounds or removal depending on the position.


Hi there, if you would just take the time to read some of my responses I did say I was going to talk to the HR, which I did. I am not in the military or deploying. My job is also not requiring a particular equipment to wear where my pregnancy will prohibit me to do my job. You are not the only hiring personnel I know who can actually give me sound advice as far as this issue is concern. And believe me when I say, the people I know are military officers(hiring officials) who personally told me they can't discriminate because of pregnancy. While I do understand your point, and I am sure there are jobs out there that will be highly affected by pregnancy, my job isn't one of them. I think there is a better way of presenting your point without coming across like your answer is the only best and correct answer. At least that is how you came across to me. Now for your pleasure, I have spoken to my HR and told them about my pregnancy. I have to wait for me to be completely out of my first trimester(at least 13 weeks). I have a very sensitive pregnancy this time that I thought this wasn't even viable. Second, I also have waited to meet with my OBGYN so I know her thoughts on flying and training(which by the way I am good to travel). I honestly do not think I should explain in details but, because you came across presumptuous that at the slightest I do not have integrity by delaying disclosure of this information, I felt compelled.

I also did not know this thread has gotten longer. For those who have been very nice and CIVIL, thank you!


You posted 3 times prior to this and NEVER did you flat out state you were going to mention it, it was always "I think". I'm glad you did and it all worked out. I was just trying to give you one side and let you know that there are avenues for a job to be rescinded based on not being upfront about certain issues. You are right, you cannot discriminate because of pregnancy, and what I was stating was not discrimination, but factual acts to the changes in a situation, and with that being stated, yes, up front and prompt honest is the only correct and best answer.... try and explain why it is not..... I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have been nice and civil, it's perception that makes people feel slighted...that is not my fault! How you read and interpret text is all on you.... I do not type with flowers and rainbows, it's straight and to the point!
I'm not a female, and not a victim or survivor of sexual harassment or assault. I do know several survivors though, and briefed DACOWITS in in my last position on what y last agency was doing to prevent and address those issues.

As for being civil...that is in the eyes of the recipient, IMO...and there are several here (myself included) feel you went beyond being civil in at least one post (and then got defensive -as above) and were called on it.

Honesty is a good thing, but there are times when someone's medical condition is NOT up for discussion or disclosure. Pregnancy is one of those where the time has to be right to disclose. Trust plays a part in early disclosure. A lack of trust will cause someone to wait until they have no longer any choice in disclosing because of behaviours like you displayed here. There are reasons people with hidden disabilities decline to disclose them until absolutely necessary (IME, right as they are about to be put on a PIP or other negative performance action) because of stigmas people attach to those medical conditions.


Frank
first thing... I am not defending anything I posted, I'm standing behind it! If someone sees it as offensive, that is there fault as there is nothing stated whatsoever that was offensive. Second..As far as disclosure, yes it is absolutely up for the situation of discussion, because when it states about your medical conditions at present and you fail to disclose, but then sign, then you have made a false official statement! Now if someone attaches a stigma as you say, then and only then is it a time to fight.
First...some education is needed. Offense/insult is determined by the recipient not the sender. You may not intended to be insulting or offensive, but that is only a mitigating factor. It does not eliminate the offensive or insulting behavior. For example, if I criticize a dish at a potluck meal as being too salty for my tastes, and then discover I was talking to the person who made it...I may seem offensive or insulting to the cook. I may mitigate my offence by apologizing and clarifying that I use less salt in my cooking due to high blood pressure. While both statements are true...they can still be offensive.

2nd: Where do I have to disclose my medical conditions when I begin employment? There is a form where disclosure is OPTIONAL. I do have to state I am capable of doing the duties of the position to the best of my knowledge...but show me where the "false official statement" is if I say I can do my job, whether I have a disability or not? Granted there are a FEW positions where potentially infectious conditions (Hep C, HIV, etc) need to be disclosed due to the nature of the job, but again...those are very few out there. Ever been arrested is more of a requirement than if a person has a medical condition.

You are making a claim of "required" and to not do so "is a false official statement." So...in the longstanding rules of the interwebs...please provide a link to your evidence to support these claims. Otherwise, live up to the core values you claimed to be upholding and apologize for being offensive (even if you didn't mean to be).


That is perception/interpretation... the education comes from the person who made the statement to the one who misunderstood it! You're are talking about criticizing something, I did not you made a definitive statement. Where do you have to disclose, it depends on the job and the interview. As a supervisor, I can tailor a interview to suit the needs of a job and at the end I can ask the question "Are all your statements a truth to the best of your knowledge?" that is where the false official statement comes into play. Trust me, I have been doing this for the past 15 years...nothing illegal about it!
And the moment you ask a pregnancy or medical related question (beyond a generic "are you able to do these functions?"), you have violated the law, and your applicant gets to come to my office if they are not selected for the position (for either refusing to answer the illegal question, or if they did answer it!)...and then your General Counsel gets a little upset about having to defend an illegal action (no defence and then the agency enters settlement talks very early). Unless, of course, you are willing to violate core values and lie you didn't ask a medical or pregnancy related question in the interview!

As for being offended...what if they understood exactly what you said but still found it offensive? Even after you explained what you meant? Are they still wrong to be offended? Who decides when someone can be offended? The offender? Or the offended? Go on...keep digging....

I work in a job where impact outweighs intent every day. In fact, a neutral policy can be found to have discriminatory impact and so violate the law. There is a reason why certain questions are illegal in job interviews. But go ahead and ask them if you want...I have several several numbers for good federal Labor law attorneys...they would love a case where a manager says he or she can ask whatever they want in a job interview! (I'd say Tully Rinckey, Gilbert Employment Law Group for a couple of really good law firms to start off the list..)



Well.. what can I say, you must be right and the 12 others across the globe who do the same job and ask the same tailored interview questions that I do must be wrong. Also I guess the 4 General Managers that supervise us are in violation of your rules as well and to top it of the SES that oversees the DOS program that we run is guilty to since she approves of how we run and do business, I mean she signed off on our interview process right, so she is the guilty one here? Maybe those questions are illegal when it comes to Secretary or kitchen work, but when it comes to the protection of heads of state, they are not illegal at all!. Now back to your assuming again.... nowhere did I state that I could ask whatever I want, I stated I could tailor the interview to suit the needs of the job, that is a huge difference and I'm sorry that you can't understand that, but it is not my place to educate you on that either. Now, who decides on who is offended, that is an easy one, but if I have to explain it to you well then maybe you shouldn't be a supervisor?



This is just going to be a vicious circle with no end in sight and a conversation that will exist for the sake of whose argument is better.


See this is where we greatly differ and it shows in a Supervisors traits. You're arguing for the for the sake of who has the better argument as stated. I'm not arguing at all. I made clear concise factual statements. I am not choosing to be better here, I chose what is correct...there is a huge difference!!!
frankgonzalez  
#55 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 3:01:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
See this is where we greatly differ and it shows in a Supervisors traits. You're arguing for the for the sake of who has the better argument as stated. I'm not arguing at all. I made clear concise factual statements. I am not choosing to be better here, I chose what is correct...there is a huge difference!!!
How about simply understanding the law as being a major factor in a supervisor being successful. Another trait of a good supervisor is understanding the SMEs are here to help you from breaking the law. I fall into the SME category.

https://www.google.com/search?q=...ceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Asking questions about disabilities or pregnancy PRIOR to making a job offer is illegal. (exception exists when the applicant raises the issue first)

And as for your earlier remark regarding "are the other 12 people who come up with these questions wrong?" If they are asking about disabilities or pregnancy prior to making a job offer...then yes, they may find themselves on the losing side of an EEO complaint.

Now certain essential elements of a position may eliminate some disabilities inherently (vehicle driver for example needs to have a driver's license, and you need to be able to see to have one, or if your position requires deployments, being in a wheelchair may eliminate someone from consideration), but only if they are truly essential elements. But again, the only question you can ask would be..."Are you able to obtain and maintain a valid driver's license?" or "Are you able to deploy to a region where there are few or no paved roads or sidewalks, and can move to bunkers in case of incoming fire?" After the job offer, then you can ask about disabilities and eliminate the person if the disability would prevent them from doing all essential elements of the job.

of course, what do I know...I've only been working in the EEO field for 20+ years, and managed to keep "my" (as in those I advise) supervisors out of the papers and not on the losing side of an EEO complaint.

But you do you..and hopefully, your EEO office keeps you straight, or your General Counsel (or JAG, as applicable) has a fat check book if that doesn't work!

Edited by user Monday, April 30, 2018 3:04:16 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
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GWPDA on 6/25/2018(UTC)
CivSer67  
#56 Posted : Monday, April 30, 2018 3:12:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: CivSer67 Go to Quoted Post
See this is where we greatly differ and it shows in a Supervisors traits. You're arguing for the for the sake of who has the better argument as stated. I'm not arguing at all. I made clear concise factual statements. I am not choosing to be better here, I chose what is correct...there is a huge difference!!!
How about simply understanding the law as being a major factor in a supervisor being successful. Another trait of a good supervisor is understanding the SMEs are here to help you from breaking the law. I fall into the SME category.

https://www.google.com/search?q=...ceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Asking questions about disabilities or pregnancy PRIOR to making a job offer is illegal. (exception exists when the applicant raises the issue first)

And as for your earlier remark regarding "are the other 12 people who come up with these questions wrong?" If they are asking about disabilities or pregnancy prior to making a job offer...then yes, they may find themselves on the losing side of an EEO complaint.

Now certain essential elements of a position may eliminate some disabilities inherently (vehicle driver for example needs to have a driver's license, and you need to be able to see to have one, or if your position requires deployments, being in a wheelchair may eliminate someone from consideration), but only if they are truly essential elements. But again, the only question you can ask would be..."Are you able to obtain and maintain a valid driver's license?" or "Are you able to deploy to a region where there are few or no paved roads or sidewalks, and can move to bunkers in case of incoming fire?" After the job offer, then you can ask about disabilities and eliminate the person if the disability would prevent them from doing all essential elements of the job.

of course, what do I know...I've only been working in the EEO field for 20+ years, and managed to keep "my" (as in those I advise) supervisors out of the papers and not on the losing side of an EEO complaint.

But you do you..and hopefully, your EEO office keeps you straight, or your General Counsel (or JAG, as applicable) has a fat check book if that doesn't work!


Now, ask yourself.... If I or any of my colleagues have broken the law, would we still be in the position we have been doing for multiple years? Do you think our Supervisors and Program directors turn a blind eye and just say go for it? None of us have EVER been on a board of any kind EEO , discrimination or whatever based on the hiring practices I stated. Again...my prior post to this stands, but I'm sure you'll be back trying to prove your point again
A1c  
#57 Posted : Saturday, June 23, 2018 10:21:08 AM(UTC)
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So I figured I can give you all an update with this post. I just got back from my training and it has been a wonderful experience overall. The Agency Supervisor and HR with the EEO Department have been on top of my issues and have been so gracious enough to take as much accommodation as reasonable for me. Thank you all for the responses! I truly appreciate it. I look forward to learning and growing in this profession.
thanks 1 user thanked A1c for this useful post.
frankgonzalez on 7/2/2018(UTC)
FedCivServ  
#58 Posted : Monday, June 25, 2018 10:53:40 AM(UTC)

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That's great, so happy for you. Best of luck.
GWPDA  
#59 Posted : Monday, June 25, 2018 2:46:47 PM(UTC)
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Excellent!

I hope that from now til delivery the worst you have to face is where to get the right height footstool! And that you are happy as a clam in your job!

(PS: Keep that A1C where it needs to be too. Both of you will be very, very happy.)

Edited by user Monday, June 25, 2018 2:50:04 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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