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Hank6285  
#1 Posted : Monday, June 4, 2018 4:38:56 PM(UTC)
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As a Fed for many years, I was hired years ago under competitive service. I do however qualify for schedule A. With a severe disability.
I saw an announcement that I want to apply for that is open to the public.

IF I apply under Scedule A, am I also considered under “open to the public “ list? Or am I only considered under the schedule A list?

I understand I must be qualified regardless. I’m just trying to figure out if applying under schedule A is worth it?

Thanks!
Hank

Edited by user Monday, June 4, 2018 4:56:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FrankJr  
#2 Posted : Monday, June 4, 2018 7:17:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hank6285 Go to Quoted Post
As a Fed for many years, I was hired years ago under competitive service. I do however qualify for schedule A. With a severe disability.
I saw an announcement that I want to apply for that is open to the public.

IF I apply under Scedule A, am I also considered under “open to the public “ list? Or am I only considered under the schedule A list?

I understand I must be qualified regardless. I’m just trying to figure out if applying under schedule A is worth it?

Thanks!
Hank


No harm in applying via Schedule A. I think you will find yourself in a two year trial period, though. The hiring managers (and HR) are woefully unfamiliar with the mechanics of Schedule A and the two year trial period. Schedule A is not a golden ticket. Feel free with contact the human resources representative noted with the job.
frankgonzalez  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:17:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hank6285 Go to Quoted Post
As a Fed for many years, I was hired years ago under competitive service. I do however qualify for schedule A. With a severe disability.
I saw an announcement that I want to apply for that is open to the public.

IF I apply under Scedule A, am I also considered under “open to the public “ list? Or am I only considered under the schedule A list?

I understand I must be qualified regardless. I’m just trying to figure out if applying under schedule A is worth it?

Thanks!
Hank
Short answer, if you only apply under schedule A, that s all you will be considered under. Apply for ALL announcements and hiring authorities you qualify for. So...if you qualify under Schedule A, VEOA, VRA, Open to the Public, Merit Promotion, Federal Employees only...then make certain you apply and check all the relevant categories you can be considered under. You never know which cert the selecting official will go to first...

That said, Schedule A is a great concept and idea, but poorly implemented. Plus, the 2 year probation period is a non-starter for me, especially as I have tenure in both the Competitive and Excepted Service at this point.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
Hank6285  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:59:12 AM(UTC)
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There was NO reference to Schedule A applicants. Should I email HR or just apply (open to the public)?
TheRealOrange  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 4:18:45 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hank6285 Go to Quoted Post
There was NO reference to Schedule A applicants. Should I email HR or just apply (open to the public)?

On our agency postings there is no reference to Schedule A, but applicants can indicate eligibility for a "special appointment authority." Here, checking that box does not limit the review to only the special appointment authorities and the applicant would still be considered just like all other applicants. It would be possible for them to be on several certificates: category rating; merit promotion; non-competitive; Schedule A; etc. But, you would need to check that with the HR contact for the specific vacancy to ensure that is how the hiring agency operates. Also, if you were hired under Schedule A you would leave the competitive service and enter the excepted service and would have a two-year probationary period. If there are any doubts about your ability to handle the job, that is a major factor to consider. The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified. Best of luck in whatever choice you make.
frankgonzalez  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 8:30:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified...
And have a selecting official decide to hire you. This is the key factor. Most SOs prefer to go through and find the best person if there is a cert (or several!) to pic from.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
TheRealOrange  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 9:48:14 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified...
And have a selecting official decide to hire you. This is the key factor. Most SOs prefer to go through and find the best person if there is a cert (or several!) to pic from.


Since the federal agency disability hiring goals (12% disability; 2% targeted disability) are now set by federal regulation rather than just policy, I am finding that most selecting officials are more than willing to consider Schedule A applicants (and also 30% or more disabled veterans).
frankgonzalez  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 5, 2018 9:59:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified...
And have a selecting official decide to hire you. This is the key factor. Most SOs prefer to go through and find the best person if there is a cert (or several!) to pic from.


Since the federal agency disability hiring goals (12% disability; 2% targeted disability) are now set by federal regulation rather than just policy, I am finding that most selecting officials are more than willing to consider Schedule A applicants (and also 30% or more disabled veterans).
Remember, a goal does not have to be met. A quota does. And, while some hiring managers will use Schedule A, most avoid it preferring a regular hire process. As for vets...30% is not as scary as a person with a known serious disability (such as perceived as qualifies for schedule A). Diabetes, Sleep Apnea, etc are all things that can net a veteran 30+% rating from the VA. Plus veterans are liked these days (unlike the late 70s early 80s!), you can check 2 boxes with a disabled vet (disabled and veteran, and if you are lucky...the magic 30% disabled vet box).

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
Hank6285  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 3:38:52 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for ALL of the replies and advice.
I think it’s best to say the hiring official is going to hire who they want regardless of schedule A, or not.
I did however email HR in the announcement regarding applying under Schedule A, All with no reply back.

With that being said, I am just going to apply under Competitive Service/public.

Thanks again!
TheRealOrange  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 4:44:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified...
And have a selecting official decide to hire you. This is the key factor. Most SOs prefer to go through and find the best person if there is a cert (or several!) to pic from.


Since the federal agency disability hiring goals (12% disability; 2% targeted disability) are now set by federal regulation rather than just policy, I am finding that most selecting officials are more than willing to consider Schedule A applicants (and also 30% or more disabled veterans).
Remember, a goal does not have to be met. A quota does. And, while some hiring managers will use Schedule A, most avoid it preferring a regular hire process. As for vets...30% is not as scary as a person with a known serious disability (such as perceived as qualifies for schedule A). Diabetes, Sleep Apnea, etc are all things that can net a veteran 30+% rating from the VA. Plus veterans are liked these days (unlike the late 70s early 80s!), you can check 2 boxes with a disabled vet (disabled and veteran, and if you are lucky...the magic 30% disabled vet box).


Obviously a goal is not a quota, but the senior leaders here take the now regulatory goals very seriously, and are also keenly aware of the reporting requirements and now voluminous information required to show progress toward achieving the goals (or lack thereof). They fully expect the goals to ultimately be met. I guess it is entirely agency specific, but at this agency hiring officials definitely do not try to avoid using the Schedule A appointment authority. In fact, they would prefer that the agency use it as intended rather than including it as a part of the "regular" competitive process as is currently done. Different strokes....
frankgonzalez  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 10:39:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: TheRealOrange Go to Quoted Post
The advantage of using the Schedule A appointing authority is that you need not be the best qualified candidate; you simply need to be qualified...
And have a selecting official decide to hire you. This is the key factor. Most SOs prefer to go through and find the best person if there is a cert (or several!) to pic from.


Since the federal agency disability hiring goals (12% disability; 2% targeted disability) are now set by federal regulation rather than just policy, I am finding that most selecting officials are more than willing to consider Schedule A applicants (and also 30% or more disabled veterans).
Remember, a goal does not have to be met. A quota does. And, while some hiring managers will use Schedule A, most avoid it preferring a regular hire process. As for vets...30% is not as scary as a person with a known serious disability (such as perceived as qualifies for schedule A). Diabetes, Sleep Apnea, etc are all things that can net a veteran 30+% rating from the VA. Plus veterans are liked these days (unlike the late 70s early 80s!), you can check 2 boxes with a disabled vet (disabled and veteran, and if you are lucky...the magic 30% disabled vet box).


Obviously a goal is not a quota, but the senior leaders here take the now regulatory goals very seriously, and are also keenly aware of the reporting requirements and now voluminous information required to show progress toward achieving the goals (or lack thereof). They fully expect the goals to ultimately be met. I guess it is entirely agency specific, but at this agency hiring officials definitely do not try to avoid using the Schedule A appointment authority. In fact, they would prefer that the agency use it as intended rather than including it as a part of the "regular" competitive process as is currently done. Different strokes....
Without knowing your agency, I can't look up their MD-715 or DVAAP reports to see how they are doing with regard to the goals (full disclosure, I work on those reports as part of my job). I do know that across the federal government, the goals for targeted disabilities have not been met for years.. Part of that is due to a lack of self-identification (many people with hidden disabilities, especially mental health related ones try hard to not share that with employers or those outside their immediate families for fear of the reaction they may get).

I'm all for hiring folks with disabilities and veterans (and vets with disabilities) as I are one of them. I have collaborated with the Staffing and Recruiting folks in all my agencies to try and increase those numbers since I became a civilian. Sometimes the issue is resumes (and I'm willing to help in that arena with feedback and coaching and translating milspeak to civilianese), but I find Schedule A (as someone who qualifies for it) to be near useless. And I consider Vet preference almost as useless. I think VRA and VEOA are more valuable to vets these days that simple vet preference.

Just my thoughts though...

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
TheRealOrange  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 11:02:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Without knowing your agency, I can't look up their MD-715 or DVAAP reports to see how they are doing with regard to the goals (full disclosure, I work on those reports as part of my job). I do know that across the federal government, the goals for targeted disabilities have not been met for years.. Part of that is due to a lack of self-identification (many people with hidden disabilities, especially mental health related ones try hard to not share that with employers or those outside their immediate families for fear of the reaction they may get).

I'm all for hiring folks with disabilities and veterans (and vets with disabilities) as I are one of them. I have collaborated with the Staffing and Recruiting folks in all my agencies to try and increase those numbers since I became a civilian. Sometimes the issue is resumes (and I'm willing to help in that arena with feedback and coaching and translating milspeak to civilianese), but I find Schedule A (as someone who qualifies for it) to be near useless. And I consider Vet preference almost as useless. I think VRA and VEOA are more valuable to vets these days that simple vet preference.

Just my thoughts though...


I am also responsible for all of that reporting and have been for about 17 years. We are currently at/above the PWTD goal in all onboard workforce areas, but we're only at about 10.5% for PWD. We're above all of the comparison rates for disabled veterans, including 30% or more, and always have been. I find that Schedule A is useless only when not used properly, which apparently is pervasive throughout the government. We don't use it correctly either, but it's not a function of our hiring officials; it's a function of our HR personnel.

HR Bubba  
#13 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 5:40:39 AM(UTC)

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Maybe some agencies include EEO as part of their HR office, but not all agencies do that. As an HR person, the only category of applicant that I care about putting in front of the hiring manager is the "best qualified". In my opinion, goals and quotas for specific groups of people should rest with EEO and the hiring official(s), not HR.
frankgonzalez  
#14 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 6:05:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HR Bubba Go to Quoted Post
Maybe some agencies include EEO as part of their HR office, but not all agencies do that. As an HR person, the only category of applicant that I care about putting in front of the hiring manager is the "best qualified". In my opinion, goals and quotas for specific groups of people should rest with EEO and the hiring official(s), not HR.
I not (and have never been) in HR, but do collaborate with them on recruiting and outreach. Can't meet the goals if the population demographic being sought isn't applying to your agency. Sometimes you have to go to them and make the case for applying to your agency vs the myriad of other private and public sector organizations also trying to increase their diversity mix.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
HR Bubba  
#15 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 9:39:17 AM(UTC)

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Again, sounds like an EEO function. HR is a middle man in all of this. These seem to be agency/EEO goals & quotas, perhaps EO should coordinate with the hiring organization to "go to them to make the case". HR does not make selections, the hiring official does; if hiring officials do not listen to the agency chain of command or EO with regard to this matter, why should the onus be put on HR? I'm not saying these are not valid/reasonable goals, I'm saying I do not believe the onus for reaching these goals should be on HR.
frankgonzalez  
#16 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 12:13:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HR Bubba Go to Quoted Post
Again, sounds like an EEO function. HR is a middle man in all of this. These seem to be agency/EEO goals & quotas, perhaps EO should coordinate with the hiring organization to "go to them to make the case". HR does not make selections, the hiring official does; if hiring officials do not listen to the agency chain of command or EO with regard to this matter, why should the onus be put on HR? I'm not saying these are not valid/reasonable goals, I'm saying I do not believe the onus for reaching these goals should be on HR.
No onus on HR, beyond making certain we are reaching out to the communities we are looking to hire (ie if we are recruiting at STEM colleges, are we also going out HBCUs like Florida A&M? If we are looking for engineers and recruiting at conferences for engineers, are we looking at groups like MAES for outreach?). The selection is always the manager. But are the folks in HR who are tasked with recruiting ensuring a diverse pool of candidates is available for the manager to select from? Without that, no-one can achieve the goals.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
HR Bubba  
#17 Posted : Friday, June 8, 2018 2:59:33 AM(UTC)

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Maybe this is a perception thing, from my perspective we (HR) are reaching out to all communities; USAJobs is available to all US citizens through Internet access. I think that if an agency wants to devote additional resources to recruiting a special emphasis category that is fine, I just don't necessarily think it should be an HR resource. From my perspective, my only concern is putting the best qualified in front of the hiring manager, I honestly could not care less if the selectee is from a special emphasis group. If I was an EO person, my perspective would probably be very different. Maybe some agencies have specific HR personnel who do nothing but job fairs and recruitment events, but my agency doesn't; this is simply one more job duty that we have to perform.
Frank, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I read many of your posts and value the advice that you provide to folks who are looking for answers. I think I am getting really burned out on this whole HR job. I often read posts on this board from people complaining about how bad the hiring process is and often I agree. But, I also realize that I was hired to do classification & staffing, but am also expected to do podium training, job fairs and myriad other tasks that take time away from my primary role(s). Add to this that my office has never been fully staffed in the 10 years I have been here and just when we get a person trained it seems that they are on their way out the door to work as a shadow HR person for an individual organization (usually at higher grades than the actual HR folks, but with far less responsibility). I don't blame folks for leaving the HR field, it seems to me that although senior leaders pay a lot of lip service to how important the HR function is we are constantly underfunded & understaffed. As soon as the right opportunity presents itself, I too will be an ex HR person. Sorry for the rant, off my soapbox.
frankgonzalez  
#18 Posted : Monday, June 11, 2018 3:50:44 AM(UTC)
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HR Bubba...come on over to NASA....we take care of our people!
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
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