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FEDLEO03  
#1 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:01:05 AM(UTC)
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I have a EEO problem and need some guidance. I settled a EEO complaint approx. 2 years ago and since then I have applied for several jobs/promotions and not been on the best qualified list /not referred list. In my agency when you apply for a job it goes to a third party that is not local that scores and rates your application as either best qualified and referred or not referred list . The best qualified list then is sent to the selecting official. I feel this is due to my EEO settlement and is retaliation. I talked to my agencies EEO counselor and he states I have no case to file since my application goes to the third party for rating and there is no one local to file on due to this. This does not make sense to me as the third party that rates applications is actually part of my agency but not local.

Edited by user Saturday, November 10, 2018 8:02:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

swimmingly  
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2018 9:19:47 PM(UTC)

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If you file an EEO or workers comp claim your career is over.At least you still have your job which is a better outcome than many. Third party or not, who knows what goes on in human resources once they get the data....
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DroneBee on 11/15/2018(UTC)
frankgonzalez  
#3 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2018 4:42:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FEDLEO03 Go to Quoted Post
I have a EEO problem and need some guidance. I settled a EEO complaint approx. 2 years ago and since then I have applied for several jobs/promotions and not been on the best qualified list /not referred list. In my agency when you apply for a job it goes to a third party that is not local that scores and rates your application as either best qualified and referred or not referred list . The best qualified list then is sent to the selecting official. I feel this is due to my EEO settlement and is retaliation. I talked to my agencies EEO counselor and he states I have no case to file since my application goes to the third party for rating and there is no one local to file on due to this. This does not make sense to me as the third party that rates applications is actually part of my agency but not local.

First, the EEO counselor should not have told you that you have no case. Odds are you don’t have a winning complaint based on what you describe, but it is not the counselor’s place to say so.

Have you been referred to other jobs in other agencies? If yes, maybe something is a problem. Without knowing the series and grade, it is harder to say what else could be the issue beyond your resume may not be strong enough for your agency.


You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
DroneBee  
#4 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 12:39:10 PM(UTC)

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I would not suggest putting in another complaint - be happy you were not fired. You will not get another job at your agency - word has traveled that you are a problem. You should apply to a different agency.


Hawaiiannative  
#5 Posted : Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:18:12 PM(UTC)
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In other words, Buddy, you are stuck where you are at that agency. They may not be able to get rid of you, but they sure as heck are not going to ever let you move.
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DroneBee on 12/20/2018(UTC)
DroneBee  
#6 Posted : Saturday, November 17, 2018 9:43:08 AM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: Hawaiiannative Go to Quoted Post
In other words, Buddy, you are stuck where you are at that agency. They may not be able to get rid of you, but they sure as heck are not going to ever let you move.


Hawaiian - Your comment is funny - and I agree somewhat. I don't know these supervisors, but maybe they would like to hand off this "problem" to another agency instead of having him/her there. However, yes, these supervisors may be vindictive SOBs who get their jollies from tormenting this employee, or who would never want the employee to get ahead, and so would sabotage any hope for change/advancement. The only recourse for this person is to TRY to apply to a different agency.

I would suggest having a friend call the supervisors for a reference or something about the employee. I think there may be some companies that actually do this. Then the person can see what the supervisors actually say.

emrlddragon  
#7 Posted : Sunday, December 9, 2018 5:53:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: swimmingly Go to Quoted Post
If you file an EEO or workers comp claim your career is over.At least you still have your job which is a better outcome than many. Third party or not, who knows what goes on in human resources once they get the data....



Why is it that doing the right thing ends someone's career? I know that retaliation is real in our agency, vindictive supervisors have been getting away with just about everything. There have been so many people that have come forward and the agency would rather lose good employees that get rid of toxic supervisors. The moral suffers and ultimately most people leave and go somewhere else, leaving everyone else overwhelmed with extra work.
If the problem is the supervisor, why is senior leadership willing to stand behind these bullies?
DroneBee  
#8 Posted : Friday, December 14, 2018 8:25:04 AM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: swimmingly Go to Quoted Post
If you file an EEO or workers comp claim your career is over.At least you still have your job which is a better outcome than many. Third party or not, who knows what goes on in human resources once they get the data....



Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
Why is it that doing the right thing ends someone's career?

Because this exposes the agency to wrong-doing. The agency *SAYS* it wants to do the right thing, but in actuality, does not want to be exposed. So the agency *SAYS* there are fair systems (which these are neither fair nor systems) for the whistleblower, but in actuality, the agency rallies behind the supervisor, leaves the complainant out in the cold, and creates the false story - including doctoring documents - that the complainant is a total nut-job.

Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
I know that retaliation is real in our agency, vindictive supervisors have been getting away with just about everything.

This is in *ALL* agencies.

Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
There have been so many people that have come forward and the agency would rather lose good employees that get rid of toxic supervisors.

Happens to the best of us - I received the boot after 15+ years of excellent service - accolades, promotions, etc. The agency even had my work friends turn on me, which they did to keep their jobs.

Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
The moral suffers and ultimately most people leave and go somewhere else, leaving everyone else overwhelmed with extra work.

If the people are smarter than I and went elsewhere before the boot!

Originally Posted by: emrlddragon Go to Quoted Post
If the problem is the supervisor, why is senior leadership willing to stand behind these bullies?

The agencies hired these bullies into leadership positions - the agency would have to say it was wrong - which the agency will NOT do unless the agency is absolutely FORCED to do so. No leader ever gets fired - the worst is that the leader will be transferred to another position. The complainant will be maligned.

Edited by user Friday, December 14, 2018 8:26:10 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hawaiiannative  
#9 Posted : Saturday, December 15, 2018 11:28:48 AM(UTC)
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DroneBee knows. Truer words have never been said. I have seen things that are staggeringly dishonest, and lacking in integrity.

Don't expect kudos for pointing out what they already know, and choose to ignore. When you say something it forces them to pay attention to something they don't want to deal with. And you are the bad one.

Get out or say nothing. Whistleblowing is career suicide.
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DroneBee on 12/20/2018(UTC)
frankgonzalez  
#10 Posted : Monday, December 17, 2018 5:17:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hawaiiannative Go to Quoted Post
DroneBee knows. Truer words have never been said. I have seen things that are staggeringly dishonest, and lacking in integrity.

Don't expect kudos for pointing out what they already know, and choose to ignore. When you say something it forces them to pay attention to something they don't want to deal with. And you are the bad one.

Get out or say nothing. Whistleblowing is career suicide.
Actually, DroneBee and yourself have had bad experiences (and perhaps the evidence for your cases wasn't there). However, others (including myself) have used the system and moved on after settling the case or winning in court.

I work in EEO, and I have seen too many people bring issues to the EEO process expecting it to fix the wrongs they see when it is either;
a. the wrong forum
b. possibly the right forum but no evidence to support their claim(s)
c. a reactive defense move to try and deflect action being taken against them for legitimate reasons

c happens most of the time...and even if the manager was a racist/sexist/etc, they didn't have to make stuff up to take action because the employee has already provided the ammunition for the adverse action...such as being late frequently, not performing the duties of the position, etc.and these employees fight all the way through the system to an AJ (and sometimes beyond) to get the same result...no discrimination or reprisal.

This isn't to say the supervisor is a saint or even any good. Only that the employee was not reprised or illegally discriminated against.

All I have ever told employees and managers is if you are doing your job then the system works. If you aren't, then it will also show that as well.

So when that employee claims disability discrimination because they declare they need to work telework full time and from another state, yet their job requires them to come into the office and access and work with classified information a few times a week...the employee can argue their way out of a job by finding themselves no longer a qualified employee (if the job requires being able to come into the office and you can't do that, you are no longer qualified for the position)...and if they then restrict the geographical area they are willing to work...that can mean the agency has no openings to offer them as an accommodation of last resort, which results in the removal action. And the Employee then files their EEO complaint of discrimination and/or reprisal. And then whines when they discover the AJ (and Federal District Judges if they pursue that far) finds against them.

Then they come on forums like this saying the system is stacked against them and does nothing to protect them.

There are cases where discrimination and reprisal occur...and most of them the agency moves to settle quickly (or at least before an AJ or Judge actually hears the case!) to avoid a finding. And many agencies move to resolve cases EVEN when they could win in court simply because it is easier and cheaper to do so.


You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
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emrlddragon on 12/30/2018(UTC)
emrlddragon  
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2018 6:18:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Hawaiiannative Go to Quoted Post
DroneBee knows. Truer words have never been said. I have seen things that are staggeringly dishonest, and lacking in integrity.

Don't expect kudos for pointing out what they already know, and choose to ignore. When you say something it forces them to pay attention to something they don't want to deal with. And you are the bad one.

Get out or say nothing. Whistleblowing is career suicide.
Actually, DroneBee and yourself have had bad experiences (and perhaps the evidence for your cases wasn't there). However, others (including myself) have used the system and moved on after settling the case or winning in court.

I work in EEO, and I have seen too many people bring issues to the EEO process expecting it to fix the wrongs they see when it is either;
a. the wrong forum
b. possibly the right forum but no evidence to support their claim(s)
c. a reactive defense move to try and deflect action being taken against them for legitimate reasons

c happens most of the time...and even if the manager was a racist/sexist/etc, they didn't have to make stuff up to take action because the employee has already provided the ammunition for the adverse action...such as being late frequently, not performing the duties of the position, etc.and these employees fight all the way through the system to an AJ (and sometimes beyond) to get the same result...no discrimination or reprisal.

This isn't to say the supervisor is a saint or even any good. Only that the employee was not reprised or illegally discriminated against.

All I have ever told employees and managers is if you are doing your job then the system works. If you aren't, then it will also show that as well.

So when that employee claims disability discrimination because they declare they need to work telework full time and from another state, yet their job requires them to come into the office and access and work with classified information a few times a week...the employee can argue their way out of a job by finding themselves no longer a qualified employee (if the job requires being able to come into the office and you can't do that, you are no longer qualified for the position)...and if they then restrict the geographical area they are willing to work...that can mean the agency has no openings to offer them as an accommodation of last resort, which results in the removal action. And the Employee then files their EEO complaint of discrimination and/or reprisal. And then whines when they discover the AJ (and Federal District Judges if they pursue that far) finds against them.

Then they come on forums like this saying the system is stacked against them and does nothing to protect them.

There are cases where discrimination and reprisal occur...and most of them the agency moves to settle quickly (or at least before an AJ or Judge actually hears the case!) to avoid a finding. And many agencies move to resolve cases EVEN when they could win in court simply because it is easier and cheaper to do so.




I appreciate your responses and information. I know the merits of my case stand on their own and I do believe my agency will move to settle during mediation. I have more than enough documentation, my supervisor really likes to do everything in email. I was told to do things clearly against regulations/OPM guidelines, even after I pointed out that what I was being asked was wrong. My supervisor talked about me when I wasn't in the office and had the "legal" advisor emailing me in an attempt to dissuade me from pursuing a complaint, basically telling me I didn't have a valid complaint. My supervisor was forwarding my emails to the legal advisor and having her respond to me.
I am not worried at all about being fired. In a strange conversation last week my supervisor told me that he has no issue with my work and that he knows I work well above others in our office. I definitely walked away from that conversation confused.
Hawaiiannative  
#12 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2018 9:33:47 PM(UTC)
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Don't be confused. The supervisor is trying to make you feel like you are really doing the wrong thing.

People don't leave jobs, they leave supervisors.
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emrlddragon on 1/2/2019(UTC)
nightchop  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:00:55 AM(UTC)

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Something similar happened to me. The management team spent half a year telling me that my performance needed to improve. Every day they were trying to plant seeds that I wasn't performing well. So when I got a fairly good performance review, not only was I confused--I was livid! All the stress they put me through having me think I was going to get a bad review only to have them do the opposite. I was seriously angry they didn't give me a negative review. I later found out that was their goal, but labor told them they couldn't. There was no factual basis for giving me a bad performance evaluation. So what did they do next? Start dinging me for "conduct" issues. Another federal supervisor told me it's easier to get an employee on conduct vs performance. Their new strategy was to fabricate stories about my attitude, which is still not a valid reason for terminating a career federal employee. It's amazing to see the pattern play out--how they switched to conduct issues after labor told them they couldn't target my performance. All well-documented and easy for an outsider to follow the progression.

When I sit back and think about it, I should feel honored these people spent so much of their time and energy on me. I was like the office celebrity.
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emrlddragon on 1/2/2019(UTC)
FedCivServ  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 5:26:04 AM(UTC)

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Well attitude CAN be a reason for discipline and even eventual removal if it manifests in conduct issues like chronic late arrivals, failure to follow supervisors instructions, etc. I don’t know you or your situation but just clarifying a point you made. Conduct IS easier to remove someone on because there is no PIP required as would be needed with performance issues. Are there supervisors who target employees? I’m sure there are but some employees make that extremely easy. It may be a personality conflict or the like but anyone who finds themselves in such a situation should get busy on usajobs and start looking for other gigs. Your management may give you a good reference to have you gone but I’d make sure your supervisor knows your plan because the last thing you want is for a prospective new boss to call the current who isn’t aware you are looking.
nightchop  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 7:16:14 AM(UTC)

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Nice try. There is no case law supporting any of the garbage written in my discipline, which is why the agency is working overtime to make sure my case never makes it in front of a real judge.
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emrlddragon on 1/2/2019(UTC)
emrlddragon  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:05:00 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nightchop Go to Quoted Post
Nice try. There is no case law supporting any of the garbage written in my discipline, which is why the agency is working overtime to make sure my case never makes it in front of a real judge.


I do believe that to be the case with my complaint as well. I think they want mediation so that the truth doesn't come out, I think I've uncovered too much. I tried to cancel mediation 3 times already, I have no issue going before a judge. I know the merits of my case and that this is truly a systemic problem, an ongoing violation and now they have even tried to get a new investigator assigned- saying the other one cannot travel to do in-person interviews which the agency requests. Well, I'm not agreeing to an extension so the 180 clock stops ticking on 1 April.
FedCivServ  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:36:35 PM(UTC)

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Ok...guess you neglected to read the part where I said I didn’t know you or your situation but was just explaining about conduct issues as a general concept. If there is no merit in what has been written up and you can prove it then you have nothing to worry about. Suppose you do prevail...then what? If your management is as bad as you say do you really want to stay there?
nightchop  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 12:58:02 PM(UTC)

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I wasn't coming down on you. My response was really for others who may be under the mistaken impression that firing a federal employee for "attitude" is acceptable. You would really have to be familiar with the specifics of my case to know what I mean. I've spoken to multiple people about it, including other federal managers, and everyone agrees that my situation is unbelievable. It's so ridiculous people thought I was exaggerating and nobody believed it was happening until I paid the ultimate price (termination).

As for my plans...well, this is the internet, I have reason to believe my online activities are being monitored and I prefer not to say too much. Just know that I started looking for a new job less than three months in. Hope that somewhat answers your question.
emrlddragon  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2019 8:08:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nightchop Go to Quoted Post
I wasn't coming down on you. My response was really for others who may be under the mistaken impression that firing a federal employee for "attitude" is acceptable. You would really have to be familiar with the specifics of my case to know what I mean. I've spoken to multiple people about it, including other federal managers, and everyone agrees that my situation is unbelievable. It's so ridiculous people thought I was exaggerating and nobody believed it was happening until I paid the ultimate price (termination).

As for my plans...well, this is the internet, I have reason to believe my online activities are being monitored and I prefer not to say too much. Just know that I started looking for a new job less than three months in. Hope that somewhat answers your question.


I'm sorry you had that experience. Nothing really surprises me anymore after what I've experienced, just when I think it can't get any worse- it does. There so many people leaving our agency, there is no way to replace the number of people that just up and leave so we are always understaffed.

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