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Mrgrimm312  
#1 Posted : Monday, December 30, 2019 3:13:30 PM(UTC)
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Does anyone have any insight for a situation that’s currently happening in my office... Any info would be great.

So management is currently forcing 12. Making non-odl carriers work off their assignment. Then we have the ODL and CCA carriers getting back within 10 hours sitting in the break room eating pizza and bsing until they can leave at 12 hours.

Clearly if management did their job correctly those ODL and CCA could of easily carried what was forced upon the other non-odl carriers.

Thanks for any info.
postalvet  
#2 Posted : Monday, December 30, 2019 5:09:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Does anyone have any insight for a situation that’s currently happening in my office... Any info would be great.

So management is currently forcing 12. Making non-odl carriers work off their assignment. Then we have the ODL and CCA carriers getting back within 10 hours sitting in the break room eating pizza and bsing until they can leave at 12 hours.

Clearly if management did their job correctly those ODL and CCA could of easily carried what was forced upon the other non-odl carriers.

Thanks for any info.


the easiest would be for all non odl's to get a 8 hours restriction.

no one can force management to do their job, that is why there is article 3.
answers come from experience

Was a carrier despite what

Just Cause & rodger.d say

no one else has to prove anything

rip rbg
Yukoncarrier24  
#3 Posted : Monday, December 30, 2019 5:29:14 PM(UTC)
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Management is in control of the schedule. Make sure the ODL carriers get their 12 no matter what
Roger.D  
#4 Posted : Monday, December 30, 2019 5:32:07 PM(UTC)
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What are the OTDL/CCA's clocked into? If they are not smart and clocked to "training", you have proof that they were available. Remidy, start with an extra 1.5/hour for each non-otdl.

Mrgrimm312  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 7:50:15 AM(UTC)
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I have the ODL and CCA personal writing statements that they were readily available and sat around for over 2 hours.

Under article 3 C. Management to maintain the efficiency of the operation entrusted to them. Which it’s no efficient to pay ODL and cca penalty to just sit there and pay overtime also to the non odl being forced.

Also article 3 D. To determine the methods, means, and personal by which operations are to be performed.

We’ll send it up to step for and see what we get back. It’s worth a try.
thanks 1 user thanked Mrgrimm312 for this useful post.
oldboy on 12/31/2019(UTC)
Roger.D  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 8:25:40 AM(UTC)
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Make your case as solid as possible. Clock rings and end mileage scans (if those are available). If end mileage scans are not, any scan events. Even their GPS locations. Ask for it all.
Seadogg  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 10:31:43 AM(UTC)
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This has happened to me too; sometimes the ODL even gets back before me and sits for three hours. It's mystifying why they are not sent back out to help people.
Mrgrimm312  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 11:53:29 AM(UTC)
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Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.
postalvet  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 1:18:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.
answers come from experience

Was a carrier despite what

Just Cause & rodger.d say

no one else has to prove anything

rip rbg
MPE2009  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 2:33:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.
thanks 1 user thanked MPE2009 for this useful post.
oldboy on 12/31/2019(UTC)
postalvet  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 3:51:56 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"
answers come from experience

Was a carrier despite what

Just Cause & rodger.d say

no one else has to prove anything

rip rbg
oldboy  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 6:38:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"


Trick question?

Whats that have to do with step Bs /DRTs agreeing with management?
White lives Matter

Blue lives Matter


colty31  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, December 31, 2019 9:13:22 PM(UTC)
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offices have carriers sitting around for hours at the end of the day? why?

that does not happen in our office, we have ODL carriers get back early sometimes but they simply clock out and go home
MPE2009  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 1, 2020 11:16:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"


I'm pretty sure that Moe didn't file any grievances prior to the union being formed and recognized. It's also irrelevant to current grievances, esp when there are precedents that can't be overcome or are not worth pursuing. Like it or not, the union is also a business, it has a budget. It has to pick and choose which cases are most important and get the most resources. Even if it's only the stewards' buddies....
postalvet  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, January 1, 2020 12:22:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"


I'm pretty sure that Moe didn't file any grievances prior to the union being formed and recognized. It's also irrelevant to current grievances, esp when there are precedents that can't be overcome or are not worth pursuing. Like it or not, the union is also a business, it has a budget. It has to pick and choose which cases are most important and get the most resources. Even if it's only the stewards' buddies....


you really need to read up on apwu nalc union history.



"
In 1962, President Kennedy signed Executive Order 10988 which, for the first time, officially recognized the legitimate role of federal employee unions in the workplace. Representation elections in which 77 percent of the eligible employees participated resulted in the certification of six unions as the exclusive bargaining agents for each of the postal crafts. The unions now had the right to negotiate with management concerning working conditions, promotional standards, grievance procedures, safety and other matters. However, they could not negotiate over wages and fringe benefits. Another major flaw of the Executive Order was that nothing compelled the Post Office management to reach an agreement with the unions. In any dispute, management still had the last word.
The 1960's brought unfulfilled promises of pay equity with private industry. While the unions were hammering out agreements with the Post Office, they still had to lobby for raises in postal salaries to offset the effects of inflation. In the government's effort to curb spending, federal workers' salaries-once again-became the scapegoat. Low pay and money-saving restrictions in overtime led to high employee turnover, a heavy mail backlog and a severe drop in morale. The workers' frustrations mounted and the postal unions appeared incapable of overcoming employee dissatisfaction and the increasing sense of powerlessness."



https://www.google.com/u...aw38lrWNzZ3NGBpZx8C2Q7iX
answers come from experience

Was a carrier despite what

Just Cause & rodger.d say

no one else has to prove anything

rip rbg
MPE2009  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, January 1, 2020 6:50:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"


I'm pretty sure that Moe didn't file any grievances prior to the union being formed and recognized. It's also irrelevant to current grievances, esp when there are precedents that can't be overcome or are not worth pursuing. Like it or not, the union is also a business, it has a budget. It has to pick and choose which cases are most important and get the most resources. Even if it's only the stewards' buddies....


you really need to read up on apwu nalc union history.



"
In 1962, President Kennedy signed Executive Order 10988 which, for the first time, officially recognized the legitimate role of federal employee unions in the workplace. Representation elections in which 77 percent of the eligible employees participated resulted in the certification of six unions as the exclusive bargaining agents for each of the postal crafts. The unions now had the right to negotiate with management concerning working conditions, promotional standards, grievance procedures, safety and other matters. However, they could not negotiate over wages and fringe benefits. Another major flaw of the Executive Order was that nothing compelled the Post Office management to reach an agreement with the unions. In any dispute, management still had the last word.
The 1960's brought unfulfilled promises of pay equity with private industry. While the unions were hammering out agreements with the Post Office, they still had to lobby for raises in postal salaries to offset the effects of inflation. In the government's effort to curb spending, federal workers' salaries-once again-became the scapegoat. Low pay and money-saving restrictions in overtime led to high employee turnover, a heavy mail backlog and a severe drop in morale. The workers' frustrations mounted and the postal unions appeared incapable of overcoming employee dissatisfaction and the increasing sense of powerlessness."



https://www.google.com/u...aw38lrWNzZ3NGBpZx8C2Q7iX


Interesting information. I'm not sure how that changes my answer. Does anything in that history change the fact that current precedents are difficult to overturn and that the unions must allocate their resources in ways to maximize results?
postalvet  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, January 1, 2020 7:31:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: postalvet Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Yea season that is very frustrating and quite wasteful of the post offices resources and money.

Maybe if the union starts filing grievances and having them go up to arbitration they can see the abuse of management and their unwillingness to run the company efficiently and they may just may make a binding decision that would prevent this in the future.

I know our union vp and president keep saying well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do. But that’s quite a ***** answer from a “strong union” as they claim.


this statement is the biggest copout to ever come from a union rep.
"well they’ve been doing it in their office and there’s nothing we can do."

ask that azz what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?



kindly or not explain to that azz that you have to start somewhere.


That statement could also mean that it has been grieved and lost numerous times.


so I will ask you the same thing.

"what would they say if the founder of the apwu would have said that back in the 70's?"


I'm pretty sure that Moe didn't file any grievances prior to the union being formed and recognized. It's also irrelevant to current grievances, esp when there are precedents that can't be overcome or are not worth pursuing. Like it or not, the union is also a business, it has a budget. It has to pick and choose which cases are most important and get the most resources. Even if it's only the stewards' buddies....


you really need to read up on apwu nalc union history.



"
In 1962, President Kennedy signed Executive Order 10988 which, for the first time, officially recognized the legitimate role of federal employee unions in the workplace. Representation elections in which 77 percent of the eligible employees participated resulted in the certification of six unions as the exclusive bargaining agents for each of the postal crafts. The unions now had the right to negotiate with management concerning working conditions, promotional standards, grievance procedures, safety and other matters. However, they could not negotiate over wages and fringe benefits. Another major flaw of the Executive Order was that nothing compelled the Post Office management to reach an agreement with the unions. In any dispute, management still had the last word.
The 1960's brought unfulfilled promises of pay equity with private industry. While the unions were hammering out agreements with the Post Office, they still had to lobby for raises in postal salaries to offset the effects of inflation. In the government's effort to curb spending, federal workers' salaries-once again-became the scapegoat. Low pay and money-saving restrictions in overtime led to high employee turnover, a heavy mail backlog and a severe drop in morale. The workers' frustrations mounted and the postal unions appeared incapable of overcoming employee dissatisfaction and the increasing sense of powerlessness."



https://www.google.com/u...aw38lrWNzZ3NGBpZx8C2Q7iX


Interesting information. I'm not sure how that changes my answer. Does anything in that history change the fact that current precedents are difficult to overturn and that the unions must allocate their resources in ways to maximize results?




I believe you fight until you get an arbitrator to settle the issue.

If it is an ongoing issue you reframe the issue and keep fighting until you get an arbitrator to rule.


when enough grievances show in the system the national will bring it up in contract talks, sometimes.
answers come from experience

Was a carrier despite what

Just Cause & rodger.d say

no one else has to prove anything

rip rbg
Mrgrimm312  
#18 Posted : Friday, January 3, 2020 5:12:38 AM(UTC)
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Hey MPE, if we go off your logic of thinking we would never file any grievances.

Think about our contractual rights. We have a right to be on the 8 hour list to limit overtime and we have a contractual right to be on the 12 or 10 ODL...

So when management willingly forces 8 hour personal to work overtime and knowing the 12 ODL people don’t have enough work to keep them diligently working as our contract said then why is there even an option to be on the 8 hour list???

So if you don’t fight management to manage according to contract then ground is lost and they will continue to violate persons not wanting overtime.

So your argument is kind of dumb. Also your basically saying that the 8 hour people don’t matter and should t be fought for. Which they all are paying union members. So it is of value to the union to push these grievances through other wise they can simply choose to get out of the union and that revenue over a long haul is worth a lot more to the union.

Case and point.
MPE2009  
#19 Posted : Friday, January 3, 2020 10:51:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Hey MPE, if we go off your logic of thinking we would never file any grievances.

Think about our contractual rights. We have a right to be on the 8 hour list to limit overtime and we have a contractual right to be on the 12 or 10 ODL...

So when management willingly forces 8 hour personal to work overtime and knowing the 12 ODL people don’t have enough work to keep them diligently working as our contract said then why is there even an option to be on the 8 hour list???

So if you don’t fight management to manage according to contract then ground is lost and they will continue to violate persons not wanting overtime.

So your argument is kind of dumb. Also your basically saying that the 8 hour people don’t matter and should t be fought for. Which they all are paying union members. So it is of value to the union to push these grievances through other wise they can simply choose to get out of the union and that revenue over a long haul is worth a lot more to the union.

Case and point.


Rather stupid reply for you to make, since I offered no argument. I suggested that there may have been a grievance settlement or even arbitration in that office, which pertains to this particular issue. Therefore the union may have concluded that they will lose this grievance, esp if they have nothing new to fight it with and are not interested in losing it again. Reading is fundamental, try it. What research have you done on this issue? What level of participation do you offer the union? Do you just sit back and whine because "THEY" don't do enough for you or do you actively take part in the union and contribute?
Seadogg  
#20 Posted : Friday, January 3, 2020 11:21:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MPE2009 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Mrgrimm312 Go to Quoted Post
Hey MPE, if we go off your logic of thinking we would never file any grievances.

Think about our contractual rights. We have a right to be on the 8 hour list to limit overtime and we have a contractual right to be on the 12 or 10 ODL...

So when management willingly forces 8 hour personal to work overtime and knowing the 12 ODL people don’t have enough work to keep them diligently working as our contract said then why is there even an option to be on the 8 hour list???

So if you don’t fight management to manage according to contract then ground is lost and they will continue to violate persons not wanting overtime.

So your argument is kind of dumb. Also your basically saying that the 8 hour people don’t matter and should t be fought for. Which they all are paying union members. So it is of value to the union to push these grievances through other wise they can simply choose to get out of the union and that revenue over a long haul is worth a lot more to the union.

Case and point.


Rather stupid reply for you to make, since I offered no argument. I suggested that there may have been a grievance settlement or even arbitration in that office, which pertains to this particular issue. Therefore the union may have concluded that they will lose this grievance, esp if they have nothing new to fight it with and are not interested in losing it again. Reading is fundamental, try it. What research have you done on this issue? What level of participation do you offer the union? Do you just sit back and whine because "THEY" don't do enough for you or do you actively take part in the union and contribute?


I agree with you to a point, but think of this: many people on the eight hour list have family or other obligations that make it more difficult to work overtime. They are much less likely to have the time to devote to the union, even if they feel positive about it in general. There is a natural selection bias in union leadership that results in underrepresentation of eight-hour employees. That said, all the more reason for those of us who can, to step up.
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