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Unknown User  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:27:50 PM(UTC)
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I personally know a few people who are not veterans without a master or PhD degree, or related work experience that are hired at GS-11/12 positions. I am thinking about applying for a position, but where I live the federal employees is about hiring families and friends. They know they are getting away with it because it is so hard to report prohibited personnel practices.

Edited by user Wednesday, January 8, 2020 9:32:42 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

GSBS  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2020 10:37:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
I personally know a few people who are not veterans without a master or PhD degree, or related work experience that are hired at GS-11/12 positions. I am thinking about applying for a position, but where I live the federal employees is about hiring families and friends. They know they are getting away with it because it is so hard to report prohibited personnel practices.
I worked with an Agency that hired non U.S. Citizens in GS 12 & 13 positions. Some didn't speak English yet have been here in America for years

Unknown User  
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:02:04 AM(UTC)
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Wow, I always wonder why HR is not doing anything about it. They are the first line of site to approve any hiring, after selection. Why are they not auditing the selection. It especially frustrates me when I have a degree and experience for a particular job, then HR says sorry not referred. Then you find out the person selected has no relativqe experience or education.

Edited by user Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:06:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 4:20:25 AM(UTC)
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I hear this complaint frequently, yet when the facts are looked at, rarely is there an actual issue, just someone upset they didn't get selected. Plenty of complaints at the EEOC and MSPB where people claim to be better qualified due to education or time at an agency or in the federal government, and they usually lose. Those that win typically can point to things beyond that to prove to be better qualified...ie expert witnesses, actual experience (ie selectee has never done the job, whereas the complainant has done it well for several years and won awards for their work in this area, etc).

If a job series doesn't have a education requirement, then people without a degree (let alone a graduate level education) can get hired into those positions with their experience.

On the reverse side, I have seen plenty of people with graduate degrees and PhDs who shouldn't be in their positions but are simply because the hiring manager considered those more valuable than actually being able to do the job. I've seen PhDs shoot themselves in the foot in an interview but denigrating people who don't have formal educations (or worse, those who don't have a PhD) failing to realize, only one person on the interview panel has a PhD, and the selecting official "only" had a Master's degree....but they also had several patents to their name.

Once you get to the GS12 level and above, education becomes less important as there is no education equivalent you can use to get there. There may be a requirement for the job series (ie Engineering positions need an Engineering degree, a Lawyer position needs a law degree AND passing the bar, etc), but outside of that, experience is the driver for the higher grades.

I was at a Executive Training day for people considering the SES, and when I raised the issue of not having a degree, let alone a graduate degree, the response was "There is no degree requirement for the SES, only the ability to get the job done. The series may have an education requirement, but that only drives the series not the Senior Executive Service as a whole. So don't let a lack of a degree dissuade you from trying."

So...if the people hired are incompetent, that is the issue, regardless of if they have a degree or not.

Of course, I say this as a GS14 in my field...with only a couple of useless Associate Degrees (CCAF for those who know it!) unrelated to the field, and 23+ years experience doing this specific work.
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
thanks 6 users thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.
GWPDA on 1/9/2020(UTC), Endless Summer on 1/9/2020(UTC), country mouse on 1/9/2020(UTC), Unknown User on 1/9/2020(UTC), AuditWorld on 1/10/2020(UTC), King_Fed on 1/13/2020(UTC)
FS0201  
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 12:39:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
They know they are getting away with it because it is so hard to report prohibited personnel practices.


I agree with everything Frank said, but will add that it is not difficult to report a PPP. OSC has jurisdiction to investigate and take action regarding violations of the Prohibited Personnel Practices, and anyone can file a complaint here: https://osc.gov/Pages/File-Complaint.aspx . One might also go through other venues such as the IG, which will investigate if deemed worthy of their efforts.

The problem is that while it is easy to make the allegations, and I have worked some that resulted in either a removal or retirement/resignation, most allegations don’t come to anything because the allegation doesn’t hold water.
The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
thanks 1 user thanked FS0201 for this useful post.
King_Fed on 1/13/2020(UTC)
Unknown User  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 2:13:52 PM(UTC)
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I agree with Frank as well. The agency knows which court will favor in their favor. The problem is hearsay information isnt considered a fact. You need evidence to prove it, but with the agency defense they will argue we hired the best qualified candidates.

The federal employees where I live circumvent the system by hiring through limited authority appointments or contracts to get a friend or family hired. Then later on they post a position on USAJOBS. I got hired the hard way by applying, interviewing, and now leaving the state. I plan to lateral transfer back to my home town.

In the long run when I make hiring decisions, it would be following the government guidelines. We advertise fair and equal opportunities. I am not making any decisions on hiring someone friend. They are going to be judge all equally and best qualified gets the job. Hopefully no one hates me for this, but for me it comes down to moral and integrity.

I think the problem with my hometown there are generations of federal employees hired improperly. The pattern of these hiring practices get passed on from these entry level positions, and as soon as they work their way up the ladder. They think its alright to hook up their buddies with jobs.

I am sure this issue exists any small town of a population of 100k or less, and nothing but federal joba.

Edited by user Thursday, January 9, 2020 2:19:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FrankJr  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 4:31:41 PM(UTC)
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A city of 30,000 people with one employer of 2,500 people can and does result in favoritism. The one employer is easily 25% of the economy of the city, let alone the metropolitan area of the city. Not out of the ordinary for the husband, the wife and the three children to work at the one employer. Not out of the ordinary for hiring and firing and promotions and performance to be a function of favoritism. The hiring managers realize the "good fit" is in fact the local hire. The local hire will continue with the organization for decades but the not local hire will continue with the organization only long enough to change both jobs and cities. The scenario exists for political reasons more often than not so the fix would also need to be political. No congressional representative will allow 2,500 job be moved from one city due to favoritism. OPM and OMB are well aware of the most extreme examples but are clueless on a fix for the issue. Regardless, don't hesitate to apply for a federal job; every now and then the employer overrun with favoritism hires an oddball candidate to prove no favoritism.
GWPDA  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 9, 2020 5:23:20 PM(UTC)
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Who lives in a town of 30,000? In the year 2020, who imagines they're going to grow up and be employed in the town of 30,000 where they were born, AND be a GS employee? The only ones I can think of are NPS seasonal employees and folks who work for the Postal Service. Everybody else? Not terribly likely.

The Federal Government does not position its worksites to benefit its workforce. It does not benefit the government to be the single employer in an area, for all the real and imagined reasons listed above. If there is a concentration of one agency's jobs in one location it's because the work is in that location - CPB and ICE jobs tend to be near borders. Work at NARA tends to be in one of the 8 NARA main locations. Want to work for the Army? Well, there you've got more range, but it's hardly a matter of each town having a built-in Army employment center.

As has been repeated endlessly, most complaints of favoritism or special preference don't go anywhere because the complaints cannot be supported by fact. And they most certainly can't be supported by rumour, gossip or envy. Apply for the jobs you want and work to be qualified to get them. They probably won't be in your backyard.
frankgonzalez  
#9 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 4:11:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: GWPDA Go to Quoted Post
Who lives in a town of 30,000? In the year 2020, who imagines they're going to grow up and be employed in the town of 30,000 where they were born, AND be a GS employee? The only ones I can think of are NPS seasonal employees and folks who work for the Postal Service. Everybody else? Not terribly likely.

The Federal Government does not position its worksites to benefit its workforce. It does not benefit the government to be the single employer in an area, for all the real and imagined reasons listed above. If there is a concentration of one agency's jobs in one location it's because the work is in that location - CPB and ICE jobs tend to be near borders. Work at NARA tends to be in one of the 8 NARA main locations. Want to work for the Army? Well, there you've got more range, but it's hardly a matter of each town having a built-in Army employment center.

As has been repeated endlessly, most complaints of favoritism or special preference don't go anywhere because the complaints cannot be supported by fact. And they most certainly can't be supported by rumour, gossip or envy. Apply for the jobs you want and work to be qualified to get them. They probably won't be in your backyard.
I will say that military bases tend to be the major employer in small towns. Alamogordo, NM...Holloman AFB or WSMR. Minot ND...Minot AFB. Panhandle of FL...Pensacola NAS, Eglin AFB, Hurlburt Field, and Tyndall AFB (plus a few other military sites sprinkled around). Yuba City, CA...Beale AFB. And so on.. Hell, Colorado Springs, CO has Peterson AFB, the AF Academy, Ft Carson, Schriever AFB The military tends to place its bases (not always, but many, if not most) in small towns. Cheaper land, less things to mess up if something goes "boom" when it isn't supposed to, etc. So in this locations, I can see family dynasties of federal employment occurring. Some National Guard units I've seen have been really bad in this regard. May not be favoritism, but it does cause a second glance when you see the same name everywhere.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
tic32003  
#10 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 8:37:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
I personally know a few people who are not veterans without a master or PhD degree, or related work experience that are hired at GS-11/12 positions.


And?

Not all positions require a degree, regardless of the grade level. In fact, I'd estimate that the majority of positions don't have an educational requirement.

I see absolutely nothing in your post that would even hint at a prohibited personnel practice.
Unknown User  
#11 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 9:00:54 AM(UTC)
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Say there is a position for a GS-11 HR Specialist, you advertise that job as no education requirements to hire your relative or friend. Then 2 month later another GS-11 HR Specialist position opens up, you advertise that job as master degree or ph.d because whomever you know has that requirement.

Just like GWPDA stated in a previous thread "By law, no one applicant can be given any form of advantage over another applicant. If you meet with the committee, everyone else who's been contacted must also meet. That is by no means possible. I tried it, very much by the bye, when I was referred for a job about a mile away from where I was. I was gently told that unless the other referred applicants, some of whom were in Germany, DC and Korea could also come and visit, I couldnt come visit. Those are rules. That's what fairness is. Visit the park, look around, stun the committee with your knowledge."

The selecting official is giving unfair advantage to their friends over other applicants.

I also agree with GWPDA, "As has been repeated endlessly, most complaints of favoritism or special preference don't go anywhere because the complaints cannot be supported by fact. And they most certainly can't be supported by rumour, gossip or envy. Apply for the jobs you want and work to be qualified to get them. They probably won't be in your backyard."

Edited by user Friday, January 10, 2020 9:03:19 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Endless Summer  
#12 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 9:22:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
Say there is a position for a GS-11 HR Specialist, you advertise that job as no education requirements to hire your relative or friend. Then 2 month later another GS-11 HR Specialist position opens up, you advertise that job as master degree or ph.d because whomever you know has that requirement.

..."


I just did a brief search on USAJobs for Job Series 0201. I only looked at a handful of the 247 postings, but I saw none that required a Master's or Ph.D. Sure, you can substitute education for experience in a few of them.

You've posted pretty much the same post on a few occasions, so I get that you feel like you've been mistreated but I don't think you're looking at this objectively and there's benefit in continuing to feel like you're the victim.

Good Luck
FS0201  
#13 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 10:55:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Endless Summer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
Say there is a position for a GS-11 HR Specialist, you advertise that job as no education requirements to hire your relative or friend. Then 2 month later another GS-11 HR Specialist position opens up, you advertise that job as master degree or ph.d because whomever you know has that requirement.

..."


I just did a brief search on USAJobs for Job Series 0201. I only looked at a handful of the 247 postings, but I saw none that required a Master's or Ph.D. Sure, you can substitute education for experience in a few of them.


This is not how it works. I have spent my career in the 0200 series, and I have never seen an 0200 position that required a masters or doctorate; applicants are able to use education to meet the minimum requirements, but that is for many positions (and not for all grades).

In order to announce the position as having a positive education requirement, there needs to be a determination by OPM that the duties of the position cannot be performed without the prescribed minimum level of education. Think attorneys, nurses, engineers, doctors, educationalists, historians, architects, mathematicians. etc.... The closest I have seen to an positive educational requirement for an HR position are some appellate type roles (defending personnel actions), where it is noted that a JD would be beneficial - but is not required.

Edited by user Friday, January 10, 2020 11:06:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Included additional field with positive education requirement

The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
mallen  
#14 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 11:00:12 AM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: GSBS Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
I personally know a few people who are not veterans without a master or PhD degree, or related work experience that are hired at GS-11/12 positions. I am thinking about applying for a position, but where I live the federal employees is about hiring families and friends. They know they are getting away with it because it is so hard to report prohibited personnel practices.
I worked with an Agency that hired non U.S. Citizens in GS 12 & 13 positions. Some didn't speak English yet have been here in America for years



Your fluency in foreign languages must be an asset to you in finding work. Clearly you have had in depth conversation with these people to determine that they are not us citizens and dont have critical experience or job skills to qualify for the positions. Obviously you would not just assume so based on their accent, or skin color.

Edited by user Friday, January 10, 2020 11:16:48 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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frankgonzalez on 1/14/2020(UTC)
Unknown User  
#15 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 2:39:08 PM(UTC)
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I think it just depends on the geographical region, population, and culture. Definitely not upset and not interest in the job. Maybe your office is more scrutinized when it comes to hiring. When you work in an office environment where there are generations of employees who were hired because of favoritism relating to relatives or friends. Then it becomes a big problem, because it becomes part the culture. From working in such environment, why is such behavior allowed?

This happened to me, I applied for a job at my office. I had the education and experience, but hr did not refer my application because they said there was a best qualified candidate. The person turn out she had to experience at all, and knew nothing about the job. I had to train the individual, yet I was told not best qualified.

Edited by user Friday, January 10, 2020 4:10:19 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Unknown User  
#16 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 4:13:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FS0201 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Endless Summer Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
Say there is a position for a GS-11 HR Specialist, you advertise that job as no education requirements to hire your relative or friend. Then 2 month later another GS-11 HR Specialist position opens up, you advertise that job as master degree or ph.d because whomever you know has that requirement.

..."


I just did a brief search on USAJobs for Job Series 0201. I only looked at a handful of the 247 postings, but I saw none that required a Master's or Ph.D. Sure, you can substitute education for experience in a few of them.


This is not how it works. I have spent my career in the 0200 series, and I have never seen an 0200 position that required a masters or doctorate; applicants are able to use education to meet the minimum requirements, but that is for many positions (and not for all grades).

In order to announce the position as having a positive education requirement, there needs to be a determination by OPM that the duties of the position cannot be performed without the prescribed minimum level of education. Think attorneys, nurses, engineers, doctors, educationalists, historians, architects, mathematicians. etc.... The closest I have seen to an positive educational requirement for an HR position are some appellate type roles (defending personnel actions), where it is noted that a JD would be beneficial - but is not required.


The one in my hometown requires either a master or Ph.D. I did trying applying in the past base on experience, but hr tells me doesn't meet educational requirements.
djp  
#17 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 5:45:37 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: GWPDA Go to Quoted Post
Who lives in a town of 30,000? In the year 2020, who imagines they're going to grow up and be employed in the town of 30,000 where they were born, AND be a GS employee? The only ones I can think of are NPS seasonal employees and folks who work for the Postal Service. Everybody else? Not terribly likely.

The Federal Government does not position its worksites to benefit its workforce. It does not benefit the government to be the single employer in an area, for all the real and imagined reasons listed above. If there is a concentration of one agency's jobs in one location it's because the work is in that location - CPB and ICE jobs tend to be near borders. Work at NARA tends to be in one of the 8 NARA main locations. Want to work for the Army? Well, there you've got more range, but it's hardly a matter of each town having a built-in Army employment center.

As has been repeated endlessly, most complaints of favoritism or special preference don't go anywhere because the complaints cannot be supported by fact. And they most certainly can't be supported by rumour, gossip or envy. Apply for the jobs you want and work to be qualified to get them. They probably won't be in your backyard.
I will say that military bases tend to be the major employer in small towns. Alamogordo, NM...Holloman AFB or WSMR. Minot ND...Minot AFB. Panhandle of FL...Pensacola NAS, Eglin AFB, Hurlburt Field, and Tyndall AFB (plus a few other military sites sprinkled around). Yuba City, CA...Beale AFB. And so on.. Hell, Colorado Springs, CO has Peterson AFB, the AF Academy, Ft Carson, Schriever AFB The military tends to place its bases (not always, but many, if not most) in small towns. Cheaper land, less things to mess up if something goes "boom" when it isn't supposed to, etc. So in this locations, I can see family dynasties of federal employment occurring. Some National Guard units I've seen have been really bad in this regard. May not be favoritism, but it does cause a second glance when you see the same name everywhere.



First off...in many cases the bases were there before most people. They didn’t get the land because it was cheap and rural.

The bases were needed in part to have large areas of land for trainingorits sn airport....thus many don’t want yo live near there because of nouse


There has not been a new base created in the continental USA in years other than an air guard unit using a commercial airport.




Yes many of these training bases are large employers in small communities.

As a result of this you have selection priorities like military spouse

In the real world a lot of this has to do with professional network and “ nepotism” of friends hiring friends or peop,e they know well.

As for degrees..history lesson here...


In the mid 80s is when the transition started for many jobs requiring a degree as a preliminary job screener. Those people now in their early 50s and older could work there way up without a bachelors degree.

Is not official practice but in the military you now need to have a masters to get promotion to O5. O5 is about a high 13/low 14 position. Some applying For GS 14 orhigher are going to need a masters or higher unless they know people and have built a reputation. Im not intimated by phDs just as smart as them. In fed govt outside of a few positions or areas, phDs are unnessacery. So do e hiring mgr will ignore applicants even if qualified if they don’t have a masters.






djp  
#18 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 5:59:23 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: FS0201 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
They know they are getting away with it because it is so hard to report prohibited personnel practices.


I agree with everything Frank said, but will add that it is not difficult to report a PPP. OSC has jurisdiction to investigate and take action regarding violations of the Prohibited Personnel Practices, and anyone can file a complaint here: https://osc.gov/Pages/File-Complaint.aspx . One might also go through other venues such as the IG, which will investigate if deemed worthy of their efforts.

The problem is that while it is easy to make the allegations, and I have worked some that resulted in either a removal or retirement/resignation, most allegations don’t come to anything because the allegation doesn’t hold water.


Earlier this week I was talking with coworkers about some stuff regarding what our office and past experiences and would detail assignments benefit some. You ne m ntioned that with many jobs applied in 95% of the situations they already someone in mind for the promotion.

We have a job opening with one of our people transferred agencies this week and wondered if the position would be modified some. The duties if they remain the same will be highly specialized and there are no who you already know type of potential applicants.


mallen  
#19 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 6:54:24 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
I think it just depends on the geographical region, population, and culture. Definitely not upset and not interest in the job. Maybe your office is more scrutinized when it comes to hiring. When you work in an office environment where there are generations of employees who were hired because of favoritism relating to relatives or friends. Then it becomes a big problem, because it becomes part the culture. From working in such environment, why is such behavior allowed?

This happened to me, I applied for a job at my office. I had the education and experience, but hr did not refer my application because they said there was a best qualified candidate. The person turn out she had to experience at all, and knew nothing about the job. I had to train the individual, yet I was told not best qualified.


If this keeps happening, review your resume. There may be some issue that prevents hr from accurately determine your qualifications.
FS0201  
#20 Posted : Friday, January 10, 2020 6:56:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Unknown User Go to Quoted Post
The one in my hometown requires either a master or Ph.D. I did trying applying in the past base on experience, but hr tells me doesn't meet educational requirements.


I would be interested to see the announcement for that, if you would like to share - either posting of through private message.
The excuse of, "I read it on FederalSoup..." won't work. Please do your due diligence.
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