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Fed3117  
#1 Posted : Monday, August 10, 2020 6:03:19 PM(UTC)

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Hi All:

Applied to a job where I accepted a tentative offer and the clearance process took 7+ months and has finally been ajudicated. This will be a promotion where I will become a supervisor as a 14. HR has been rather unhelpful throughout the whole process and most recently stated “you cannot negotiate salary.” I know this is bogus , as I have friends who were feds who negotiated salary at the same agency for promotions. After trying to go through the chain of command, I asked to speak to the hiring manager about the negotiation, which will happen later this week. Since the clearance is TS and I’ve had many accomplishments/achievements since then, I feel like I have some leverage. Have others had success in a situation like mine? Thanks !
frankgonzalez  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2020 3:31:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fed3117 Go to Quoted Post
Hi All:

Applied to a job where I accepted a tentative offer and the clearance process took 7+ months and has finally been ajudicated. This will be a promotion where I will become a supervisor as a 14. HR has been rather unhelpful throughout the whole process and most recently stated “you cannot negotiate salary.” I know this is bogus , as I have friends who were feds who negotiated salary at the same agency for promotions. After trying to go through the chain of command, I asked to speak to the hiring manager about the negotiation, which will happen later this week. Since the clearance is TS and I’ve had many accomplishments/achievements since then, I feel like I have some leverage. Have others had success in a situation like mine? Thanks !
So, you are leaving a pay band system and moving to GS? If so...HR is correct. Pay band systems have some flexibility built into them. The GS side...not so much. You will be converted from your pay band to GS (so if you are between steps when converted over you are moved up to the nearest step), moved 2 steps (if it is a promotion otherwise, just placed on the applicable step on the GS scale) and then placed on the GS14 step that is correct.

If you move from GS to a pay band, you are converted over with credit given for your time towards the next step (which can result in a slight increase in salary), and promotions usually involve either an increase in a % range within the same band or being moved into a new band.

If you are already a federal employee, GS pay system does not allow for negotiation.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
Fed3117  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:14:16 AM(UTC)

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Thanks for the response. So you’re saying there is no negotiation at all - it’s automatic? Looks like I will be rejecting it after all of that clearance waiting.
frankgonzalez  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2020 7:11:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fed3117 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks for the response. So you’re saying there is no negotiation at all - it’s automatic? Looks like I will be rejecting it after all of that clearance waiting.
Yep...you negotiate when you enter the federal system for the first time. After that, the rules for pay setting control.

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
djp  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:07:27 PM(UTC)

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Not true....

I know people who when moving between metro areas were able to keep the higher pay ass an incentive

Say their pay was a 14-3 and the moved for a job in a lower locality pay market. The equivalent level in new market was a 14-7 so thry moved then to 14-7 to take the newjob.

When going from GS and non GS systems, in a lateral move a 5% raise can be given on base pay.
someoldguy  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:14:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Fed3117 Go to Quoted Post
HR has been rather unhelpful throughout the whole process
Shocking!

Edited by user Tuesday, August 11, 2020 4:15:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

DISCLAIMER: You read it on an open internet forum :)
frankgonzalez  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 12, 2020 3:03:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: djp Go to Quoted Post
Not true....

I know people who when moving between metro areas were able to keep the higher pay ass an incentive

Say their pay was a 14-3 and the moved for a job in a lower locality pay market. The equivalent level in new market was a 14-7 so thry moved then to 14-7 to take the newjob.

When going from GS and non GS systems, in a lateral move a 5% raise can be given on base pay.
I can see a relocation incentive being paid (which is a percentage of salary for a period of time, typically in 12 month increments), but being placed on a higher step? I'd like to see the OPM rules which allow for that. Not saying it can't be done, just saying I'd like a reference vs "I know someone who had this happen..." as I know some people will lie about stuff like this or have no real clue what is actually happening (like getting a relocation incentive and then freak out when it ends as it was only for a specific period of time because they didn't realize it would end).

Can one of our HR gurus shed some light?
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
HR Bubba  
#8 Posted : Friday, August 28, 2020 10:00:54 AM(UTC)

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Under GS pay setting rules, current GS employees cannot negotiate salary/higher steps. The example that djp offered is a good example of incorrect pay setting and if audited the employee is going to get a letter of indebtedness. If he is a friend you should tell him to look into it; it will be a nasty surprise if when they go to retire they are told they owe Uncle Sam thousands of dollars and their retirement check isn't gong to be what they thought it was.

For OP, not enough information to give a correct answer. In general, you will be converted out of the demo and then your pay will be set using GS pay setting rules (pay is always set using the rules for the system you are moving into, not out of). I can't speak for all demos, but the ones that I have experience with use the same conversion out process:

1. Determine grade using the GS representative rate (rep rate is step 4). For example (using GS base pay table for ease), I will assume you are in a band that encompasses the equivalent of GS-12 & GS-13 (this is common) and lets say you make $85,500. Starting at the highest grade encompassed in the band (GS-13 in this case) you compare your salary (base) with the rep rate GS-13 step 4. If your salary meets or exceeds this amount then your grade is GS-13. If your salary does not meet or exceed the GS-13 rep rate, you move down to the next grade encompassed by the band (GS-12) and compare your salary to the rep rate (step 4), if your salary meets or exceeds this amount then your grade is GS-12. If it doesn't meet or exceed GS-12 step 4 you would go down to the next grade encompassed by the band. In this example, GS-12 is the lowest grade encompassed by the band so you would stop there. Here is how it looks:

Salary = $85,500.00
GS-13 step 4 - $86,550
GS-12 step 4 = $72,785

The salary does not meet GS-13 step 4, so you move down to GS-12 step 4. It meets or exceeds this rep rate, therefore your grade would be set at GS-12. Next you take the salary and see where it lands on the GS-12 line. In this case, it falls between steps 9 & 10. The employee gets the benefit of the higher step so the conversion out would be: GS-12 step 10.

For the move into GS, the specific pay setting rule they will use is dependent upon how they advertised and are filling the position. Again in general, if it's in the same agency they will likely use the two step rule. If it's a different agency they will probably use Highest Previous Rate (HPR).
djp  
#9 Posted : Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:15:41 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: HR Bubba Go to Quoted Post
Under GS pay setting rules, current GS employees cannot negotiate salary/higher steps. The example that djp offered is a good example of incorrect pay setting and if audited the employee is going to get a letter of indebtedness. If he is a friend you should tell him to look into it; it will be a nasty surprise if when they go to retire they are told they owe Uncle Sam thousands of dollars and their retirement check isn't gong to be what they thought it was.

For OP, not enough information to give a correct answer. In general, you will be converted out of the demo and then your pay will be set using GS pay setting rules (pay is always set using the rules for the system you are moving into, not out of). I can't speak for all demos, but the ones that I have experience with use the same conversion out process:

1. Determine grade using the GS representative rate (rep rate is step 4). For example (using GS base pay table for ease), I will assume you are in a band that encompasses the equivalent of GS-12 & GS-13 (this is common) and lets say you make $85,500. Starting at the highest grade encompassed in the band (GS-13 in this case) you compare your salary (base) with the rep rate GS-13 step 4. If your salary meets or exceeds this amount then your grade is GS-13. If your salary does not meet or exceed the GS-13 rep rate, you move down to the next grade encompassed by the band (GS-12) and compare your salary to the rep rate (step 4), if your salary meets or exceeds this amount then your grade is GS-12. If it doesn't meet or exceed GS-12 step 4 you would go down to the next grade encompassed by the band. In this example, GS-12 is the lowest grade encompassed by the band so you would stop there. Here is how it looks:

Salary = $85,500.00
GS-13 step 4 - $86,550
GS-12 step 4 = $72,785

The salary does not meet GS-13 step 4, so you move down to GS-12 step 4. It meets or exceeds this rep rate, therefore your grade would be set at GS-12. Next you take the salary and see where it lands on the GS-12 line. In this case, it falls between steps 9 & 10. The employee gets the benefit of the higher step so the conversion out would be: GS-12 step 10.

For the move into GS, the specific pay setting rule they will use is dependent upon how they advertised and are filling the position. Again in general, if it's in the same agency they will likely use the two step rule. If it's a different agency they will probably use Highest Previous Rate (HPR).




This is incorrect

In 300.605 subpart F

The last part says if it falls between two representative rates you get the higher level credit.

So if you are between GS 12 step 4 and GS 13 step 4 you get 13 credit for service and you are consider a 13.

If you disagree cite the regulation actual words.

In GS pay tables the step 4 is slightly below step 1 at next level up to GS 10. For 11 and higher the line moves from 4 to higher steps where it’s close to 1 but that doesn’t matter. Step 4 is the representative rate.

That’s why the higher rate is given because in most grades the 4 step is brliw the 1 step.

Edited by user Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:24:03 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HR Bubba  
#10 Posted : Monday, August 31, 2020 6:47:52 AM(UTC)

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I think the reference you cited (300.605) is accurate IF I was trying to credit non GS service towards completion of time in grade requirements; it does not cover how to convert someone out of a demonstration project. While I like it when people use the CFR to support their position, I would caution that you need to be in the right section and not "cherry pick" a statement just because it supports your point.

Here is a link to OPM: https://www.opm.gov/poli...ertain-non-gs-employees/

This link only provides general information because each demonstration project should have their own procedures for how to do things in that particular demo. Both of the demos that I work with have their own operating guidance and both provide procedures for conversion into and out of the demo. Both do it the way I have explained previously.

Edited by user Monday, August 31, 2020 6:55:01 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

djp  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, September 1, 2020 12:11:36 PM(UTC)

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Originally Posted by: HR Bubba Go to Quoted Post
I think the reference you cited (300.605) is accurate IF I was trying to credit non GS service towards completion of time in grade requirements; it does not cover how to convert someone out of a demonstration project. While I like it when people use the CFR to support their position, I would caution that you need to be in the right section and not "cherry pick" a statement just because it supports your point.

Here is a link to OPM: https://www.opm.gov/poli...ertain-non-gs-employees/

This link only provides general information because each demonstration project should have their own procedures for how to do things in that particular demo. Both of the demos that I work with have their own operating guidance and both provide procedures for conversion into and out of the demo. Both do it the way I have explained previously.


I’m not cherry picking stuff. This applied to me when I was in NSPS and got screwed over in the transition back.

Last time I checked CFR overrules anything else...ie you can’t undo a CFR reg. You can add onto it without contradicting it.

HR Bubba  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, September 2, 2020 8:13:17 AM(UTC)

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The title of Subpart F is: Subpart F—TIME-IN-GRADE RESTRICTIONS. So again, please make sure you are in the right section of the CFR since this section has nothing to do with converting an individual out of a demonstration project; 300.605 tells us how to credit time in grade for non GS positions.

Also, maybe you should check again, CFR can be overruled by Bargaining Agreements, legal settlements, Demo Project operating guidance, etc..

Look, I'm not interested in arguing. I don't know your background, but mine is HR for about a dozen years (yes, I was around when we converted out of NSPS). I understand that just being in a job for a number of years doesn't necessarily mean you are an expert, but I am confident that the information that I am presenting is accurate.
thanks 1 user thanked for this useful post.
FS0201 on 9/2/2020(UTC)
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