Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Federal Career Planning and Development

Are you looking to get promoted?
Maybe a change in your federal career?
Need tips on resume writing to land a federal job?
Or how to increase your salary or get a pay raise?

Join this active discussion with others climbing the same challenging career ladder.

Consider ordering some helpful resources or read today's top news stories on federal employee pay, benefits, retirement, job rights and other workplace issues by visiting FederalDaily.com.

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Decadence  
#1 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 10:37:45 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
I am in the pre-employment process for a promotion to GS-13 with a new organization back in the US. I'm currently a GS-12 overseas with stateside hire benefits.

So when I initially applied to the position, I was a GS-12 Step 3. During the process of the job listing closing and being referred and interviews etc, I hit my year mark and got GS-12 Step 4. The new job is a GS-13 promotion and they came in with GS-13 Step 1, since it was 2 steps down from where I was when I applied. I told them I would like Step 3 due to my current job being overseas and the new job being in the US and I would be taking a huge pay cut (don't need to head home yet, still have at least 2 years I could stay here). The new job asks me to send over new SF-50 and pay stubs, which I promptly do. They proceed to check with command, and then come back and tell me that with the new SF-50 I sent them showing Step 4 they will adjust the GS-13 starting step on the FJO and all other negotiated benefits outside of the pay that we discussed would also reflect on the FJO.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I do a LOT for my current org and I have a manager who recognizes that. I have just received a time off award, monetary award, and have been told to expect a QSI in the near future. So now I'm thinking....ok, this is obviously a bribe to make me stay, right? I didn't say much to my manager other than "thank you", but I'm also wondering if I can use this as a bargaining chip with the new org? Can I send the QSI to them when it comes in for starting step adjustment with the new job, or is it too late in the process?

It's a wonky situation and I'm just a bit confused. Thanks in advance.

Edited by user Monday, September 14, 2020 10:39:13 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

hemihem  
#2 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 11:19:52 PM(UTC)
hemihem

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 502
Location: dmv

Was thanked: 75 time(s) in 69 post(s)
Greeting,

IMO, While it can not hurt to ask, I'll ask you when is enough, enough, you asked for an increase, sent in your SF50 as requested, received your ask, and now you want to come back with more ask.

How about you get to your new organization prove you are worth what you say you are worth, then during your annual appraisal ask for a QSI or bonus as appropriate.

That would be more of a good look. In that time if you don't receive your ask, apply for another position GS14 with an agency that see your talent as an asset to their organization.
thanks 1 user thanked hemihem for this useful post.
Decadence on 9/15/2020(UTC)
Decadence  
#3 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2020 11:59:58 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: hemihem Go to Quoted Post
Greeting,

IMO, While it can not hurt to ask, I'll ask you when is enough, enough, you asked for an increase, sent in your SF50 as requested, received your ask, and now you want to come back with more ask.

How about you get to your new organization prove you are worth what you say you are worth, then during your annual appraisal ask for a QSI or bonus as appropriate.

That would be more of a good look. In that time if you don't receive your ask, apply for another position GS14 with an agency that see your talent as an asset to their organization.


Hmmm, that's an interesting outlook. Thanks for the input. I definitely didn't think about it like that. I think enough is enough when I get what I believe I'm worth or at least based on their own criteria for determining step. I don't think I should just give up money because I don't want to ask. Sounds like the exact opposite of what you should do in life to get where you want to be.

I asked them to "correct" their starting step because they rated me against GS-12 Step 3 which was wrong. They concurred after I sent them my current SF-50. That was my first "negotiation". I guess technically I could have just accepted the GS-13 Step 1, but that's called settling, and it's never smart. If I get a QSI before the FJO, then I feel like the starting step should be re-evaluated based on their "criteria" for how they determine starting step for on-boarding personnel.

Finally, if the organization is the kind of organization that isn't going to give me anything even if I've been there killing it for them, and I need to go look somewhere else for a GS-14...then why would I even care about the "look" I'm presenting to them up front? That's not going to change the kind of organization they are and if anything, will ensure I get more money from them in the short time I am working for them. It also ensures I get a higher starting step with the next organization or when I get promoted to GS-14. So I don't really see the argument for not negotiating.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 15, 2020 12:02:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:10:47 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5,566

Thanks: 101 times
Was thanked: 1095 time(s) in 868 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
I am in the pre-employment process for a promotion to GS-13 with a new organization back in the US. I'm currently a GS-12 overseas with stateside hire benefits.

So when I initially applied to the position, I was a GS-12 Step 3. During the process of the job listing closing and being referred and interviews etc, I hit my year mark and got GS-12 Step 4. The new job is a GS-13 promotion and they came in with GS-13 Step 1, since it was 2 steps down from where I was when I applied. I told them I would like Step 3 due to my current job being overseas and the new job being in the US and I would be taking a huge pay cut (don't need to head home yet, still have at least 2 years I could stay here). The new job asks me to send over new SF-50 and pay stubs, which I promptly do. They proceed to check with command, and then come back and tell me that with the new SF-50 I sent them showing Step 4 they will adjust the GS-13 starting step on the FJO and all other negotiated benefits outside of the pay that we discussed would also reflect on the FJO.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I do a LOT for my current org and I have a manager who recognizes that. I have just received a time off award, monetary award, and have been told to expect a QSI in the near future. So now I'm thinking....ok, this is obviously a bribe to make me stay, right? I didn't say much to my manager other than "thank you", but I'm also wondering if I can use this as a bargaining chip with the new org? Can I send the QSI to them when it comes in for starting step adjustment with the new job, or is it too late in the process?

It's a wonky situation and I'm just a bit confused. Thanks in advance.
You do know a GS12 step 4 still works out to a GS13 step 1 promotion-wise, right? Now if you get a QSI taking you to step 5, then you would start at GS13 step 2.

You "losing money" because you would be moving does not play a factor as you are already a federal employee. You aren't taking a pay cut...you are losing LQA and Post Allowance/COLA. Your Pay will actually go up even if you lateral. Even stateside you can lose money with a promotion if you change localities (If I took a promotion to a lower cost area like FL or OH, I would make less than I do in DC at my current grade. Eventually, I would make more, but it would take several years to reach that point.)

I was due a WIGI to GS12 step 5 prior to starting in DC (moving from Los Angeles), so I accepted my job based on "Pay setting being conducted based on the the step I was at prior to beginning with the new agency" and explained when my WIGI was due. I started the pay period after the WIGI was posted, so started at GS13 step 2 (vs step 1 if I had been a GS12 step 4 prior to starting).



You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
thanks 1 user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.
Decadence on 9/16/2020(UTC)
FatHappyCat  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2020 6:46:27 AM(UTC)

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/9/2011(UTC)
Posts: 828

Thanks: 3 times
Was thanked: 131 time(s) in 112 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
I am in the pre-employment process for a promotion to GS-13 with a new organization back in the US. I'm currently a GS-12 overseas with stateside hire benefits.

So when I initially applied to the position, I was a GS-12 Step 3. During the process of the job listing closing and being referred and interviews etc, I hit my year mark and got GS-12 Step 4. The new job is a GS-13 promotion and they came in with GS-13 Step 1, since it was 2 steps down from where I was when I applied. I told them I would like Step 3 due to my current job being overseas and the new job being in the US and I would be taking a huge pay cut (don't need to head home yet, still have at least 2 years I could stay here). The new job asks me to send over new SF-50 and pay stubs, which I promptly do. They proceed to check with command, and then come back and tell me that with the new SF-50 I sent them showing Step 4 they will adjust the GS-13 starting step on the FJO and all other negotiated benefits outside of the pay that we discussed would also reflect on the FJO.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I do a LOT for my current org and I have a manager who recognizes that. I have just received a time off award, monetary award, and have been told to expect a QSI in the near future. So now I'm thinking....ok, this is obviously a bribe to make me stay, right? I didn't say much to my manager other than "thank you", but I'm also wondering if I can use this as a bargaining chip with the new org? Can I send the QSI to them when it comes in for starting step adjustment with the new job, or is it too late in the process?

It's a wonky situation and I'm just a bit confused. Thanks in advance.


Because you're in the system already, you really don't have negotiating power. The rules that dictates how your pay increases for a promotion is the 2-step rule which is based off of your base pay. The pay you will be offered is based off of the Grade/Step from the SF50 that you used to apply. If things change, such as receiving a step increase before a final letter is offered, you can probably submit the SF50 with the new amount and it would probably be adjusted accordingly. 'Bribes' and other promises carry no weight because none of it is assured until it comes out on an SF50.

Things like LQA and COLA are not part of your salary and play no part in determining what your pay should be when you return. This is the advantage of overseas and why so many people choose to do so; a lower base pay (lower taxes) but more take home pay because of all the allowances received. You have to weight in which is more important to you at this moment; a higher take home pay in the short term or a higher pay in the long term. Then there are other intangibles such as job satisfaction, location, family, etc. For me personally I easily turned down a 13/6 offer in CONUS from a 12/10 overseas because I make more here and can avoid the COVID *****show back home.
thanks 1 user thanked for this useful post.
Decadence on 9/16/2020(UTC)
djp  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2020 8:50:30 AM(UTC)

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,202

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 168 time(s) in 165 post(s)
Hav you talked to currrnt employer on matching 13 level?

Decadence  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2020 12:00:24 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: FatHappyCat Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
I am in the pre-employment process for a promotion to GS-13 with a new organization back in the US. I'm currently a GS-12 overseas with stateside hire benefits.

So when I initially applied to the position, I was a GS-12 Step 3. During the process of the job listing closing and being referred and interviews etc, I hit my year mark and got GS-12 Step 4. The new job is a GS-13 promotion and they came in with GS-13 Step 1, since it was 2 steps down from where I was when I applied. I told them I would like Step 3 due to my current job being overseas and the new job being in the US and I would be taking a huge pay cut (don't need to head home yet, still have at least 2 years I could stay here). The new job asks me to send over new SF-50 and pay stubs, which I promptly do. They proceed to check with command, and then come back and tell me that with the new SF-50 I sent them showing Step 4 they will adjust the GS-13 starting step on the FJO and all other negotiated benefits outside of the pay that we discussed would also reflect on the FJO.

Not to toot my own horn here, but I do a LOT for my current org and I have a manager who recognizes that. I have just received a time off award, monetary award, and have been told to expect a QSI in the near future. So now I'm thinking....ok, this is obviously a bribe to make me stay, right? I didn't say much to my manager other than "thank you", but I'm also wondering if I can use this as a bargaining chip with the new org? Can I send the QSI to them when it comes in for starting step adjustment with the new job, or is it too late in the process?

It's a wonky situation and I'm just a bit confused. Thanks in advance.


Because you're in the system already, you really don't have negotiating power. The rules that dictates how your pay increases for a promotion is the 2-step rule which is based off of your base pay. The pay you will be offered is based off of the Grade/Step from the SF50 that you used to apply. If things change, such as receiving a step increase before a final letter is offered, you can probably submit the SF50 with the new amount and it would probably be adjusted accordingly. 'Bribes' and other promises carry no weight because none of it is assured until it comes out on an SF50.

Things like LQA and COLA are not part of your salary and play no part in determining what your pay should be when you return. This is the advantage of overseas and why so many people choose to do so; a lower base pay (lower taxes) but more take home pay because of all the allowances received. You have to weight in which is more important to you at this moment; a higher take home pay in the short term or a higher pay in the long term. Then there are other intangibles such as job satisfaction, location, family, etc. For me personally I easily turned down a 13/6 offer in CONUS from a 12/10 overseas because I make more here and can avoid the COVID *****show back home.


Thank you all for your insights and opinions. To be honest, if I was at the end of my career, I probably would stay overseas as well with everything going on in the states. But I'm not, I have most of my career ahead of me and I need to get this GS-13 so I can move to GS-14. I've been applying to GS-13 jobs out here and it is just not going to happen, the jobs are few and far between and there's always some GS-13 in the states or already out here doing a lateral that gets the job. It's not just that though, my wife hasn't been able to find work here, whereas she would be making $35-$40k in the states. So we have to take that into consideration as well.

For me, I want to go home, suck it up, get some time as a supervisor and as GS-13, then head back overseas.

Originally Posted by: djp Go to Quoted Post
Hav you talked to currrnt employer on matching 13 level?



This isn't entirely about pay, it's about getting into a GS-13 supervisory slot (at a good step) so I can move my career forward.

It's a moot point now though because they've told me that they are just going to keep things where they are now, so I'm just moving forward as it stands.

Edited by user Tuesday, September 15, 2020 12:08:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 3:15:44 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5,566

Thanks: 101 times
Was thanked: 1095 time(s) in 868 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
This isn't entirely about pay, it's about getting into a GS-13 supervisory slot (at a good step) so I can move my career forward.

It's a moot point now though because they've told me that they are just going to keep things where they are now, so I'm just moving forward as it stands.
As you have been told...the step you will come in at will be driven by your current grade and step. And unless you are step 5 or above, you will start as a step 1. And...hate to tell you this, there are plenty of GS13 and above positions that are Non-Supervisory...and to be honest, they are in agencies which are better places to be than DoD (or DHS!).

I'm happy in my GS14 non-supervisory role (though I occasionally fill in as the acting director for my boss when they are on leave or TDY, but that doesn't give me the headaches of being a supervisor--writing appraisals, adverse actions, dealing with grievances, etc!). I've been a supervisor when I was active duty...easy when you have a great team...a major headache when you don't! If the right promotion opportunity comes up, I'll apply, but I'm in no hurry to take on the potential headaches of being a supervisor!

You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
thanks 1 user thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.
Decadence on 9/16/2020(UTC)
Decadence  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 4:55:50 AM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
This isn't entirely about pay, it's about getting into a GS-13 supervisory slot (at a good step) so I can move my career forward.

It's a moot point now though because they've told me that they are just going to keep things where they are now, so I'm just moving forward as it stands.
As you have been told...the step you will come in at will be driven by your current grade and step. And unless you are step 5 or above, you will start as a step 1. And...hate to tell you this, there are plenty of GS13 and above positions that are Non-Supervisory...and to be honest, they are in agencies which are better places to be than DoD (or DHS!).

I'm happy in my GS14 non-supervisory role (though I occasionally fill in as the acting director for my boss when they are on leave or TDY, but that doesn't give me the headaches of being a supervisor--writing appraisals, adverse actions, dealing with grievances, etc!). I've been a supervisor when I was active duty...easy when you have a great team...a major headache when you don't! If the right promotion opportunity comes up, I'll apply, but I'm in no hurry to take on the potential headaches of being a supervisor!



So, while I really do appreciate the insight, I wish people would say "opinion incoming" or similar and not speak matter-of-factly about things that aren't facts.

There is the thing called the "2 step rule". **PERSONAL EXPERIENCE INCOMING** This has been observed by myself at every other grade, as well as the 2 previous GS-13 positions I received offers for. In fact, in a GS-13 non-supervisory position I received a TJO for back in January, they were offering me GS-13 Step 3. This is when I was a GS-12 Step 3. So while what you're saying about me coming in at GS-13 Step 1 unless I am currently a GS-12 Step 5 is likely true a lot of the time, I have digital evidence it's not an inherent FACT all the time. Therefore, it makes it difficult to accept things that you say when you try to push them as facts, and not "norms" or personal "experiences".

The other item is that you really don't "hate to tell me" your negative outlook on supervisory positions or DoD. If you really did HATE it, you wouldn't do it. You seem very comfortable expressing your displeasure for things, and that's fine. But I'm not going to be swayed in that regard by your negative experiences, though I do ultimately respect your position. It has been noted. It is the internet after all, everyone has an opinion. :)

As for this position being supervisory, I want the supervisory time now. If I don't want it later due to negative experiences or the amount of stress, that's fine, like you said there are plenty of GS-13 slots out there that aren't supervisory. But for me, at this time, it helps my career and that's what is important to me.

The DoD is not the end all, be all agency out there to work for. That's for certain. And its high op tempo, high stress, and often lower pay is not for everyone. My previous boss couldn't handle the DoD and ended up going home and taking a job working for DoI dealing with the BIA. He loves the job and seems happy and content to get paid the same doing low-stress work. If you don't like the DoD, then you don't have to work for them. :) I'm glad we have those options available to us in the federal government. I have had nothing short of great experiences working for the DoD, because I love our military and would probably still be in the Army if I could. But I'm what most people call a "sucker", so what do I know? I couldn't be happier than working side by side with the guys and gals in uniform...it is very rewarding for me. YMMV, and I'm sorry you didn't like it for whatever reason. It sounds like you are in a great spot now, at a very comfortable level, and I'm happy for you.

Edited by user Wednesday, September 16, 2020 5:14:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

FrankJr  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 4:34:38 PM(UTC)
FrankJr

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/15/2015(UTC)
Posts: 846
United States

Thanks: 76 times
Was thanked: 127 time(s) in 117 post(s)
"Prior Federal Service and/or Retired Federal Employee
Applicants with prior federal service may be entitled to a salary adjustment. Salary adjustments are
not automatic. The prior federal service must have been similar in nature to the position for which
you have been selected. A Human Resources Specialist will review your case and decide if you
qualify for a salary adjustment. A salary adjustment may take up to four pay periods to process."

Quote from Recent Tentative Offer Letter.

Endless "negotiations" for naught...


For someone that doesn't "toot my own horn", the original poster does quite a bit of tooting his own horn. The noted awards could be "bribes" to make the employee leave. No better way to force an employee to leave than to make the employee look good.


Decadence  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 4:53:45 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: FrankJr Go to Quoted Post
"Prior Federal Service and/or Retired Federal Employee
Applicants with prior federal service may be entitled to a salary adjustment. Salary adjustments are
not automatic. The prior federal service must have been similar in nature to the position for which
you have been selected. A Human Resources Specialist will review your case and decide if you
qualify for a salary adjustment. A salary adjustment may take up to four pay periods to process."

Quote from Recent Tentative Offer Letter.

Endless "negotiations" for naught...


For someone that doesn't "toot my own horn", the original poster does quite a bit of tooting his own horn. The noted awards could be "bribes" to make the employee leave. No better way to force an employee to leave than to make the employee look good.




Thank you for your quality post and helpful comments. While your perception of me couldn't be further from the truth, it's not entirely surprising to me that some people still "communicate" this way on the internet. Wish you the very best.
hemihem  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 11:19:39 PM(UTC)
hemihem

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 502
Location: dmv

Was thanked: 75 time(s) in 69 post(s)
Greeting,

We are getting off topic, the only question remaining is: Do you or did you accept the offer?
Decadence  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, September 16, 2020 11:43:06 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: hemihem Go to Quoted Post
Greeting,

We are getting off topic, the only question remaining is: Do you or did you accept the offer?


I concur. Thanks for bringing it back around. I actually just received the FJO and it has some interesting things I wasn't expecting. They far outweigh the step increase, and I'm actually very pleased. Looking forward to supporting the troops and being back home. Take care!

Edit: Realized I didn't actually answer your question haha. Going to wait until I can talk to the wife and then we'll "accept" it together, pending any unforeseen issues.

Edited by user Thursday, September 17, 2020 12:37:20 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

frankgonzalez  
#14 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2020 3:30:15 AM(UTC)
frankgonzalez

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/8/2008(UTC)
Posts: 5,566

Thanks: 101 times
Was thanked: 1095 time(s) in 868 post(s)
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
This isn't entirely about pay, it's about getting into a GS-13 supervisory slot (at a good step) so I can move my career forward.

It's a moot point now though because they've told me that they are just going to keep things where they are now, so I'm just moving forward as it stands.
As you have been told...the step you will come in at will be driven by your current grade and step. And unless you are step 5 or above, you will start as a step 1. And...hate to tell you this, there are plenty of GS13 and above positions that are Non-Supervisory...and to be honest, they are in agencies which are better places to be than DoD (or DHS!).

I'm happy in my GS14 non-supervisory role (though I occasionally fill in as the acting director for my boss when they are on leave or TDY, but that doesn't give me the headaches of being a supervisor--writing appraisals, adverse actions, dealing with grievances, etc!). I've been a supervisor when I was active duty...easy when you have a great team...a major headache when you don't! If the right promotion opportunity comes up, I'll apply, but I'm in no hurry to take on the potential headaches of being a supervisor!



So, while I really do appreciate the insight, I wish people would say "opinion incoming" or similar and not speak matter-of-factly about things that aren't facts.

There is the thing called the "2 step rule". **PERSONAL EXPERIENCE INCOMING** This has been observed by myself at every other grade, as well as the 2 previous GS-13 positions I received offers for. In fact, in a GS-13 non-supervisory position I received a TJO for back in January, they were offering me GS-13 Step 3. This is when I was a GS-12 Step 3. So while what you're saying about me coming in at GS-13 Step 1 unless I am currently a GS-12 Step 5 is likely true a lot of the time, I have digital evidence it's not an inherent FACT all the time. Therefore, it makes it difficult to accept things that you say when you try to push them as facts, and not "norms" or personal "experiences".

The other item is that you really don't "hate to tell me" your negative outlook on supervisory positions or DoD. If you really did HATE it, you wouldn't do it. You seem very comfortable expressing your displeasure for things, and that's fine. But I'm not going to be swayed in that regard by your negative experiences, though I do ultimately respect your position. It has been noted. It is the internet after all, everyone has an opinion. :)

As for this position being supervisory, I want the supervisory time now. If I don't want it later due to negative experiences or the amount of stress, that's fine, like you said there are plenty of GS-13 slots out there that aren't supervisory. But for me, at this time, it helps my career and that's what is important to me.

The DoD is not the end all, be all agency out there to work for. That's for certain. And its high op tempo, high stress, and often lower pay is not for everyone. My previous boss couldn't handle the DoD and ended up going home and taking a job working for DoI dealing with the BIA. He loves the job and seems happy and content to get paid the same doing low-stress work. If you don't like the DoD, then you don't have to work for them. :) I'm glad we have those options available to us in the federal government. I have had nothing short of great experiences working for the DoD, because I love our military and would probably still be in the Army if I could. But I'm what most people call a "sucker", so what do I know? I couldn't be happier than working side by side with the guys and gals in uniform...it is very rewarding for me. YMMV, and I'm sorry you didn't like it for whatever reason. It sounds like you are in a great spot now, at a very comfortable level, and I'm happy for you.
You do realize HR makes mistakes...and if they make a mistake on pay setting (and typing "3" vs "1" is an easy mistake, especially if they are using a template)...and it gets caught later on...YOU get the benefit of having to pay the excess back, not the HR drone that screwed up. It happens frequent enough to people who then come on these boards (and others) to complain about having to pay back the excess they received and asking how they can get it waived (and even worse, discover the domino effect of the current step would be going backwards as their records are being corrected after a couple of years!). You didn't take the position, so we don't know how it would have turned out when you arrived or got the Firm Job offer...

If you know about the 2-step rule of pay setting and got an offer that obviously violates that and you didn't question HR (as in "I just want to verify that the offer is GS X step Y?") before accepting, then your later complaints when they correct after you start won't be really honest.

I have no problem supervising (heck, if you are a supervisor, I recommend Bill Wiley's book "The Uncivil Servant" as a great
primer on how to take adverse actions. Helps you if your ER/LR specialists aren't aggressive when it comes to problem employees). I've been there, done it, and I say again...a great team makes being a supervisor a fun time. Taking care of the team, rewarding them, etc. All it takes is one bad member of the team, and that is now where 90% of your time is spent. And it isn't fun..and you still have all the other work to do as well.

Yes...being a supervisor is something everyone should do in their career, IMO...and like growing up from a child to adult, sometimes you will wish you weren't in such a hurry once you get there.

As for the agencies...I have experience in DOD and DHS. They under grade positions while expecting the same level of work as you would do in another agency at a higher grade and then under resource you. Depending on the sub branch (AF vs Army vs Navy vs USMC or DHS vs FEMA vs USCG vs TSA, etc) you may get more or less support depending on how your leadership values what you do. And even location to location in the same branch you find great disparities. I enjoy high ops tempo..sometimes in my current job, I am bored and reach out to assist others in my directorate to fill the space. But as my job is feast or famine, I learned "hurry up and wait" many years ago as a jr enlisted member so it doesn't bother me that much. I went from acft mx on some very high ops tempo acft to EO...from fixing acft to dealing with people's problems. Both are things I enjoy doing. And I enjoyed doing it in DoD for well over a decade in uniform and for quite a few years as a civil servant. I then left DoD as the odds of a promotion were slim or required going to locations that did not interest me. So...I switched agencies (when to DHS) for a promotion (and moved to the opposite side of the country) and had fun in that role, and even moved up to the Deputy Regional Director position. Then my current position came open and I applied as it is a dream agency (#1 large agency 8 years in a row!) and the position was brand new and I got to build the program from scratch...and influence the agency level program in the process while having the union decide they want it included in their new contract with the agency as they saw the value in what it brings to their members. I get to lead while not having to be the supervisor. And with the current team I work with, I would happily step into my boss' position as they are a great team. To leave my current role would require a new challenge that interests me...and right now, I am being challenged with stretch goals, and being encouraged to think about going SES (something I NEVER had occur in DoD!) even though I never considered that an option.

I presume you are newish in your career (based on your post saying you have quite a few years to go before retirement eligible), and if so, once you have experienced a few agencies...some good, some bad...then you will understand why some agencies have great retention and people fighting to get on board with them, and some have high turnover. And sometimes high retention is because of fear of trying somewhere new (saw this a lot in DoD...people expected longevity to get them promoted, but weren't willing to apply to other jobs outside of their base even in locations where there were plenty of federal positions).

Your experience is yours. Not denigrating it at all. That said, there are those of us who have been around the block a few times offering our experiences and knowledge of the policies.
You should have voted Cthulu...the greatest of all Evils
thanks 2 users thanked frankgonzalez for this useful post.
FrankJr on 9/17/2020(UTC), Decadence on 9/17/2020(UTC)
djp  
#15 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2020 7:01:27 AM(UTC)

Rank: Senior Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/11/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,202

Thanks: 4 times
Was thanked: 168 time(s) in 165 post(s)
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Decadence Go to Quoted Post
This isn't entirely about pay, it's about getting into a GS-13 supervisory slot (at a good step) so I can move my career forward.

It's a moot point now though because they've told me that they are just going to keep things where they are now, so I'm just moving forward as it stands.
As you have been told...the step you will come in at will be driven by your current grade and step. And unless you are step 5 or above, you will start as a step 1. And...hate to tell you this, there are plenty of GS13 and above positions that are Non-Supervisory...and to be honest, they are in agencies which are better places to be than DoD (or DHS!).

I'm happy in my GS14 non-supervisory role (though I occasionally fill in as the acting director for my boss when they are on leave or TDY, but that doesn't give me the headaches of being a supervisor--writing appraisals, adverse actions, dealing with grievances, etc!). I've been a supervisor when I was active duty...easy when you have a great team...a major headache when you don't! If the right promotion opportunity comes up, I'll apply, but I'm in no hurry to take on the potential headaches of being a supervisor!



So, while I really do appreciate the insight, I wish people would say "opinion incoming" or similar and not speak matter-of-factly about things that aren't facts.

There is the thing called the "2 step rule". **PERSONAL EXPERIENCE INCOMING** This has been observed by myself at every other grade, as well as the 2 previous GS-13 positions I received offers for. In fact, in a GS-13 non-supervisory position I received a TJO for back in January, they were offering me GS-13 Step 3. This is when I was a GS-12 Step 3. So while what you're saying about me coming in at GS-13 Step 1 unless I am currently a GS-12 Step 5 is likely true a lot of the time, I have digital evidence it's not an inherent FACT all the time. Therefore, it makes it difficult to accept things that you say when you try to push them as facts, and not "norms" or personal "experiences".

The other item is that you really don't "hate to tell me" your negative outlook on supervisory positions or DoD. If you really did HATE it, you wouldn't do it. You seem very comfortable expressing your displeasure for things, and that's fine. But I'm not going to be swayed in that regard by your negative experiences, though I do ultimately respect your position. It has been noted. It is the internet after all, everyone has an opinion. :)

As for this position being supervisory, I want the supervisory time now. If I don't want it later due to negative experiences or the amount of stress, that's fine, like you said there are plenty of GS-13 slots out there that aren't supervisory. But for me, at this time, it helps my career and that's what is important to me.

The DoD is not the end all, be all agency out there to work for. That's for certain. And its high op tempo, high stress, and often lower pay is not for everyone. My previous boss couldn't handle the DoD and ended up going home and taking a job working for DoI dealing with the BIA. He loves the job and seems happy and content to get paid the same doing low-stress work. If you don't like the DoD, then you don't have to work for them. :) I'm glad we have those options available to us in the federal government. I have had nothing short of great experiences working for the DoD, because I love our military and would probably still be in the Army if I could. But I'm what most people call a "sucker", so what do I know? I couldn't be happier than working side by side with the guys and gals in uniform...it is very rewarding for me. YMMV, and I'm sorry you didn't like it for whatever reason. It sounds like you are in a great spot now, at a very comfortable level, and I'm happy for you.
You do realize HR makes mistakes...and if they make a mistake on pay setting (and typing "3" vs "1" is an easy mistake, especially if they are using a template)...and it gets caught later on...YOU get the benefit of having to pay the excess back, not the HR drone that screwed up. It happens frequent enough to people who then come on these boards (and others) to complain about having to pay back the excess they received and asking how they can get it waived (and even worse, discover the domino effect of the current step would be going backwards as their records are being corrected after a couple of years!). You didn't take the position, so we don't know how it would have turned out when you arrived or got the Firm Job offer...

If you know about the 2-step rule of pay setting and got an offer that obviously violates that and you didn't question HR (as in "I just want to verify that the offer is GS X step Y?") before accepting, then your later complaints when they correct after you start won't be really honest.

I have no problem supervising (heck, if you are a supervisor, I recommend Bill Wiley's book "The Uncivil Servant" as a great
primer on how to take adverse actions. Helps you if your ER/LR specialists aren't aggressive when it comes to problem employees). I've been there, done it, and I say again...a great team makes being a supervisor a fun time. Taking care of the team, rewarding them, etc. All it takes is one bad member of the team, and that is now where 90% of your time is spent. And it isn't fun..and you still have all the other work to do as well.

Yes...being a supervisor is something everyone should do in their career, IMO...and like growing up from a child to adult, sometimes you will wish you weren't in such a hurry once you get there.

As for the agencies...I have experience in DOD and DHS. They under grade positions while expecting the same level of work as you would do in another agency at a higher grade and then under resource you. Depending on the sub branch (AF vs Army vs Navy vs USMC or DHS vs FEMA vs USCG vs TSA, etc) you may get more or less support depending on how your leadership values what you do. And even location to location in the same branch you find great disparities. I enjoy high ops tempo..sometimes in my current job, I am bored and reach out to assist others in my directorate to fill the space. But as my job is feast or famine, I learned "hurry up and wait" many years ago as a jr enlisted member so it doesn't bother me that much. I went from acft mx on some very high ops tempo acft to EO...from fixing acft to dealing with people's problems. Both are things I enjoy doing. And I enjoyed doing it in DoD for well over a decade in uniform and for quite a few years as a civil servant. I then left DoD as the odds of a promotion were slim or required going to locations that did not interest me. So...I switched agencies (when to DHS) for a promotion (and moved to the opposite side of the country) and had fun in that role, and even moved up to the Deputy Regional Director position. Then my current position came open and I applied as it is a dream agency (#1 large agency 8 years in a row!) and the position was brand new and I got to build the program from scratch...and influence the agency level program in the process while having the union decide they want it included in their new contract with the agency as they saw the value in what it brings to their members. I get to lead while not having to be the supervisor. And with the current team I work with, I would happily step into my boss' position as they are a great team. To leave my current role would require a new challenge that interests me...and right now, I am being challenged with stretch goals, and being encouraged to think about going SES (something I NEVER had occur in DoD!) even though I never considered that an option.

I presume you are newish in your career (based on your post saying you have quite a few years to go before retirement eligible), and if so, once you have experienced a few agencies...some good, some bad...then you will understand why some agencies have great retention and people fighting to get on board with them, and some have high turnover. And sometimes high retention is because of fear of trying somewhere new (saw this a lot in DoD...people expected longevity to get them promoted, but weren't willing to apply to other jobs outside of their base even in locations where there were plenty of federal positions).

Your experience is yours. Not denigrating it at all. That said, there are those of us who have been around the block a few times offering our experiences and knowledge of the policies.



A few comments to add...

When I started my fed career I was in one of those hard to get special pay GS series. Base pay is higher for equivalent Gs snd step.

When I transfer to a different position series they just follow the GS 2-step rule, not realizing my actual base pay at old job. I pointed this out and they had to correct it raising me raising me about 5 steps.

If someone is in one of these special pay series that usually operate in the 7-12grade levels ( not 13+); coukd result in odd promotions. These series are designatedin specific markets not the series as a whole.

On supervisory.....

I prefer not to be in it if it’s pure administrative. I’m a data analyst and enjoy playing in data. At ahigh level you stop doing that.

The thing is ...you don’t get a pay boost because you are a boss. The NSPS system did that. It also gave them freedom to gut 13s to 11s.

With job growth....

DOD creates more single slot jobs than ladders. And they do low ball jobs. By si glen dlotting it makes it very difficult to work your way up a career in one location. Locals getting to 12 and 13 will dig in till they are out of the door and retire.






thanks 1 user thanked for this useful post.
Decadence on 9/17/2020(UTC)
Decadence  
#16 Posted : Thursday, September 17, 2020 2:04:24 PM(UTC)
Decadence

Rank: Rookie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/15/2016(UTC)
Posts: 40
United States

Thanks: 11 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
I have no problem supervising (heck, if you are a supervisor, I recommend Bill Wiley's book "The Uncivil Servant" as a great
primer on how to take adverse actions. Helps you if your ER/LR specialists aren't aggressive when it comes to problem employees). I've been there, done it, and I say again...a great team makes being a supervisor a fun time. Taking care of the team, rewarding them, etc. All it takes is one bad member of the team, and that is now where 90% of your time is spent. And it isn't fun..and you still have all the other work to do as well.

Yes...being a supervisor is something everyone should do in their career, IMO...and like growing up from a child to adult, sometimes you will wish you weren't in such a hurry once you get there.


Thank you very much for the recommendation. My current supervisor also gave me 2 book recommendations and a couple of "do's and don'ts" of being a supervisor. Mentorship is still very important to me and I always appreciate others pouring some of their knowledge out on those of us less experienced. I can only hope and pray that I don't end up with toxic team members, or those looking to make life miserable for others. Time will tell.

While I may not be on the tail-end of my career, I'm not brand new either. It's "time" for me to be in that type of role if I'm ever going to move up into senior management. Some people would rather not be a manager, and prefer to stay technical their whole career. There are technical GS-14 slots as I think you or someone else mentioned, and I get that. I've worked with GS-14 devs and security engineers, and they were brilliant people. But it's not my intent to stay technical my whole career. Maintain my technical knowledge to the best of my ability? Of course. But the positions I'm interested in are more management focused. I mean, someone has to do them right? Why do they have so many different career fields available in college? Because we're all so different and like different things. In the same way, I don't think that everyone dislikes being a supervisor, even if it's tough or unpleasant. The way I see it, better to find out now when I still have tons of energy and can shift career direction and opportunities quickly, then try it at the stage of life where I'm hurting every time I go to roll out of bed.

Originally Posted by: frankgonzalez Go to Quoted Post
As for the agencies...I have experience in DOD and DHS. They under grade positions while expecting the same level of work as you would do in another agency at a higher grade and then under resource you. Depending on the sub branch (AF vs Army vs Navy vs USMC or DHS vs FEMA vs USCG vs TSA, etc) you may get more or less support depending on how your leadership values what you do. And even location to location in the same branch you find great disparities. I enjoy high ops tempo..sometimes in my current job, I am bored and reach out to assist others in my directorate to fill the space. But as my job is feast or famine, I learned "hurry up and wait" many years ago as a jr enlisted member so it doesn't bother me that much. I went from acft mx on some very high ops tempo acft to EO...from fixing acft to dealing with people's problems. Both are things I enjoy doing. And I enjoyed doing it in DoD for well over a decade in uniform and for quite a few years as a civil servant. I then left DoD as the odds of a promotion were slim or required going to locations that did not interest me. So...I switched agencies (when to DHS) for a promotion (and moved to the opposite side of the country) and had fun in that role, and even moved up to the Deputy Regional Director position. Then my current position came open and I applied as it is a dream agency (#1 large agency 8 years in a row!) and the position was brand new and I got to build the program from scratch...and influence the agency level program in the process while having the union decide they want it included in their new contract with the agency as they saw the value in what it brings to their members. I get to lead while not having to be the supervisor. And with the current team I work with, I would happily step into my boss' position as they are a great team. To leave my current role would require a new challenge that interests me...and right now, I am being challenged with stretch goals, and being encouraged to think about going SES (something I NEVER had occur in DoD!) even though I never considered that an option.

I presume you are newish in your career (based on your post saying you have quite a few years to go before retirement eligible), and if so, once you have experienced a few agencies...some good, some bad...then you will understand why some agencies have great retention and people fighting to get on board with them, and some have high turnover. And sometimes high retention is because of fear of trying somewhere new (saw this a lot in DoD...people expected longevity to get them promoted, but weren't willing to apply to other jobs outside of their base even in locations where there were plenty of federal positions).

Your experience is yours. Not denigrating it at all. That said, there are those of us who have been around the block a few times offering our experiences and knowledge of the policies.


The under-grading of positions and low-balling is definitely something I have known to be true since I've been in the system. I see it every time I go to USAJobs and start applying again. I see GS-13 job at XYZ agency doing "IT Security tasks" and then I see GS-13 job at DoD doing "insert 1,000 page thesis here". It's obvious to me that the the DoD does not invest its enormous budget in its civilian workforce, and I know that. The thing is, it doesn't negatively affect me that much. I know they aren't paying as much because they're using that money to send troops to schools, or buy upgraded armor or new weapons, or whatever. It's probably not a great excuse, but it's not going to change, so I either accept it or move elsewhere. Right now, I have the "energy" to make it work for me, get experiences I probably won't get at other agencies (like traveling the world), and maybe even burn myself out a little so I'll settle down and chill out. (sort of kidding)

Now, I also had an opportunity to work for my dream job. Same agency where you're working, at least based off my interpretation of what you said. Unfortunately, my "ticket in" was a term position and I couldn't do that right now with everything being the way it is. I'm hoping in the next 5-7 years, I can settle down in the US and work for that agency until I retire. We'll see. :)

You are correct that I'm newish in my career. I mean, I'm not 25, but I'm not 50 either. I still have a good 20 years in me before I'd be looking to move on to something else. As such, I do want to move around a bit more and see the world for a bit longer. I've lived in Curacao, Japan, Kuwait, and multiple states in the US working for DoD...and not looking to slow down for another few years. Once I'm ready to settle down in the US, I'll be looking to make the move to more "premiere" agencies, if I'm able. Obviously I don't know the future, but that's my goal. The GS-13 supervisory slot is just a way to open more opportunities as I'll have checked that probation period box and "management" box, and can apply to any GS-13/14 slots overseas, particularly Europe! Really want to spend a few years there, and that's the goal after re-setting in the US.

I appreciate all the insight and advice. Hopefully I enjoy the position, and get a good team of folks. If not, well..."If at first you don't succeed...".

Edited by user Thursday, September 17, 2020 7:06:45 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Rss Feed  Atom Feed
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.


This page was generated in 0.825 seconds.