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Internal Revenue Service

As a bureau of the Department of the Treasury and as one of the world's most efficient tax administrators, the IRS role is to help the large majority of compliant taxpayers with the tax law, while ensuring that the minority who are unwilling to comply pay their fair share. (Source: www.irs.gov)

This forum will allow you to share and ask job-related questions about this bureau. This is NOT the place to ask tax questions.

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1811BAMF  
#21 Posted : Saturday, February 19, 2022 6:39:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: professorx Go to Quoted Post
How many gung ho types do y'all have in CI? My experience working in corrections, parole, and government security is that the pretend tough guys will try to make the job more than it is because they don't meet the qualifications to get hired for the positions they want. They're also the officers who put their colleagues in danger because they unnecessarily escalate situations and can't even fight. Sometimes, they can get the more active LE jobs, but they don't really have the guts to do them. The one good thing about corrections, parole and probation departments that don't allow their officers to carry weapons, and even the RO position is that you're forced to develop good communication skills or you risk getting your behind beat. I carried a gun for several years, but some of my unarmed jobs were more dangerous.

Those who can pass the physical abilities test and get a clearance will be able to leave for the DEA, FBI, U.S. Marshals, ATF, etc. Those who can't will complain at the IRS for 20 years. How many of those types do you have?



There’s a lot of them.
Red  
#22 Posted : Sunday, February 20, 2022 6:38:07 AM(UTC)

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We have a little bit of everything, from the best to the worst. Some the U.S. Attorneys ask for by name. Others don't know where the U.S. Attorney is located. Unlike the big boys, our people are expected to work cases and produce convictions. We don't have many slots for agents who only do surveillance, sit on a wire, work undercover, SWAT,etc. So the people with no aptitude (like my friend who thought OJ was framed) stand out as non-producers. Another just like him worked one pop-fly, got her 13, and was recruited for management. Our best agents are in demand- An OCDETF attorney told me his best investigators- bar none- were the IRS guys. The public doesn't know who we are, but the prosecutors do. I heard they went to bat for us back when Congress tried to disarm us.
dubyac  
#23 Posted : Sunday, February 20, 2022 6:55:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Red Go to Quoted Post
We have a little bit of everything, from the best to the worst. Some the U.S. Attorneys ask for by name. Others don't know where the U.S. Attorney is located. Unlike the big boys, our people are expected to work cases and produce convictions. We don't have many slots for agents who only do surveillance, sit on a wire, work undercover, SWAT,etc. So the people with no aptitude (like my friend who thought OJ was framed) stand out as non-producers. Another just like him worked one pop-fly, got her 13, and was recruited for management. Our best agents are in demand- An OCDETF attorney told me his best investigators- bar none- were the IRS guys. The public doesn't know who we are, but the prosecutors do. I heard they went to bat for us back when Congress tried to disarm us.


DEA: almost left bank statements during a warrant. Another IRS agent had to remind them of basic things like venue.

FBI: happened to be doing a prisoner transport at the same time as them. FBI agent didn’t have gloves, we had to help them do their search.

Every agency has its pros and cons.

You can always fail your way into management…

Red  
#24 Posted : Sunday, February 20, 2022 7:09:18 AM(UTC)

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So true, Dub. BTW, back to original thread- one of the OCDETF attorneys referred to our guys as "IRS Detectives". I like that. Sounds cooler than forensic accountants.
FL1811  
#25 Posted : Monday, February 21, 2022 1:03:42 PM(UTC)
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Maybe a dumb question, but I thought the discussion that happened previously wasn't about taking away the 1811 designation from the current agents, but rather moving CI out of the IRS and making it it's own division underneath Treasury instead of the IRS.
dubyac  
#26 Posted : Monday, February 21, 2022 8:47:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FL1811 Go to Quoted Post
Maybe a dumb question, but I thought the discussion that happened previously wasn't about taking away the 1811 designation from the current agents, but rather moving CI out of the IRS and making it it's own division underneath Treasury instead of the IRS.


That’s also been a discussion. There was a renewed interest a few years ago to move us into Treasury as our own bureau TIGTA. Main IRS was/is against it, Treasury and others were for it.

Navy Bubblehead  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 5:12:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Red Go to Quoted Post
I've seen more articles lately where our leaders refer to us as forensic accountants. To me, that is a put-down. It sounds like a Revenue Agent or an expert witness, not a Criminal Investigator GS1811. Forensic accountants are series 0510, same as Revenue Agents and other government accountants; they are not law enforcement officers. There are people in Congress (and some in IRS) who would like to disarm us and take away our 1811. Let's not give them ammunition. Personally I like the term Treasury agent. Food for thought- especially for those in SES.


Your reference to being referred to FAs as "a put-down" is an insult to FAs. You seem to think your status as LEO makes you better than anybody else. If you want to take issue with being called an FA because you are NOT an FA, I don't have a problem with that. Placing your own position as somehow better or higher than somebody else is both obnoxious and self-centered.

All positions are important. All jobs have value.
dubyac  
#28 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 5:27:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Navy Bubblehead Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Red Go to Quoted Post
I've seen more articles lately where our leaders refer to us as forensic accountants. To me, that is a put-down. It sounds like a Revenue Agent or an expert witness, not a Criminal Investigator GS1811. Forensic accountants are series 0510, same as Revenue Agents and other government accountants; they are not law enforcement officers. There are people in Congress (and some in IRS) who would like to disarm us and take away our 1811. Let's not give them ammunition. Personally I like the term Treasury agent. Food for thought- especially for those in SES.


Your reference to being referred to FAs as "a put-down" is an insult to FAs. You seem to think your status as LEO makes you better than anybody else. If you want to take issue with being called an FA because you are NOT an FA, I don't have a problem with that. Placing your own position as somehow better or higher than somebody else is both obnoxious and self-centered.

All positions are important. All jobs have value.


No one’s saying forensic accountants aren’t important.
IRSSpecialAgent_1Day  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:25:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Navy Bubblehead Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Red Go to Quoted Post
I've seen more articles lately where our leaders refer to us as forensic accountants. To me, that is a put-down. It sounds like a Revenue Agent or an expert witness, not a Criminal Investigator GS1811. Forensic accountants are series 0510, same as Revenue Agents and other government accountants; they are not law enforcement officers. There are people in Congress (and some in IRS) who would like to disarm us and take away our 1811. Let's not give them ammunition. Personally I like the term Treasury agent. Food for thought- especially for those in SES.


Your reference to being referred to FAs as "a put-down" is an insult to FAs. You seem to think your status as LEO makes you better than anybody else. If you want to take issue with being called an FA because you are NOT an FA, I don't have a problem with that. Placing your own position as somehow better or higher than somebody else is both obnoxious and self-centered.

All positions are important. All jobs have value.


There was no insult made and no one said forensic accountants aren't important.

We are Special Agents, not forensic accountants. Nurses are just as important as doctors but if I'm a doctor and went through the extra time and effort to become a doctor, I would not want to be referred to as a nurse.
Red  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 6:37:50 AM(UTC)

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To me it was a put-down because it only explains part of our job and ignores the enforcement part. It sounds like a person who sits in the office and analyzes records that an investigator brought him- I had Revenue Agents who did that on tax cases. I prefer to compare us to our cousins at USSS and ATF and other 1811s.
1811BAMF  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 7:22:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dubyac Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FL1811 Go to Quoted Post
Maybe a dumb question, but I thought the discussion that happened previously wasn't about taking away the 1811 designation from the current agents, but rather moving CI out of the IRS and making it it's own division underneath Treasury instead of the IRS.


That’s also been a discussion. There was a renewed interest a few years ago to move us into Treasury as our own bureau TIGTA. Main IRS was/is against it, Treasury and others were for it.



Everyone wished it would, but it will never happen. IRS enforcement would lose their shiny little toy. There were a bunch of ex commissioners who were against it and were public in their opinion. Truth is, IRS CI is so much more closely aligned with white collar squads at other agencies than it is with IRS, and because of it the tiny little slither that CI is at IRS gets bullied by big IRS.
Woody87  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 10:44:01 AM(UTC)
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You guys are making me nervous going into this. There’s actually a chance we’ll lose the 1811 status? One post even said “we’re one bad shooting away from losing our firearms.” So…is this just banter or is this actually a topic of conversation and something that could happen?
IRSSpecialAgent_1Day  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 11:12:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Woody87 Go to Quoted Post
You guys are making me nervous going into this. There’s actually a chance we’ll lose the 1811 status? One post even said “we’re one bad shooting away from losing our firearms.” So…is this just banter or is this actually a topic of conversation and something that could happen?


No smh
Red  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 11:50:04 AM(UTC)

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It seems Congress beats up IRS every twenty or so years. Off the top of my head, it was around 1950 Inspection was formed in response to allegations of misconduct- prior to that Intelligence handled those investigations. I think the code is still based on the code of 1954?, which put Intelligence under the District Directors and gives us our authority. In the early 70s, Operation Leprechaun was the basis for hearings claiming misconduct by Intelligence Division. We were cut back and told to work straight tax cases. Senate hearings in around 1998 alleged misconduct by CID and resulted in RRA 98. Commissioner Charles Rossotti was asked why we carry guns. He was brand new, sat mute and had no answer. No one from CID spoke up for us, in spite of all the agents who had worked drugs, organized crime, sovereign citizens, armed escorts, sky marshal duty, Secret Service details, wagering tax, and other duties for the past 80 years. We heard the Director (or AC, whatever he was called then) was offered the chance to speak but declined. We also heard our execs had to hustle to retain our carry authority. So it has been twenty years, be advised. As to going to Treasury, two Directors- Smitty Morics and Dick Wassenaar, both tried to get traction on this issue but we heard Smitty was shot down by big IRS. Wassenaar died in office from a brain tumor- he was a stand-up guy and an agent's agent. We heard he read every card sent by agents while he was in the hospital. Those of us who met him were proud to work for him.
dubyac  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, February 22, 2022 2:07:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Woody87 Go to Quoted Post
You guys are making me nervous going into this. There’s actually a chance we’ll lose the 1811 status? One post even said “we’re one bad shooting away from losing our firearms.” So…is this just banter or is this actually a topic of conversation and something that could happen?


No.

By and large, most case agents would like to be out of the shadow of Main IRS.

This is one of those recurring messages we hear to the point I'd almost dismiss it as a boogeyman story. If management wants to say in one breath how great of a job we're doing, and in the other mention how we're at risk of losing our 1811 status based on some vague, unspecified metric they won't explain...Oh well, let them. Personally I've heard this in one form or another once a year.

The government abhors change. Would moving us to Treasury be an improvement for case agents? Probably. Would IRS want to lose us? No. So, nothing changes. ICE ERO gets so much bad publicity that all the SACs of HSI wrote a letter in 2018 to DHS Secretary asking to be removed from ICE's umbrella. Nothing's happened there.

Like Red mentions, we've had issues with leadership (both Main IRS and IRS-CI) and they all could do more to advocate for us.



thanks 1 user thanked dubyac for this useful post.
Woody87 on 2/22/2022(UTC)
Hired 2015  
#36 Posted : Saturday, March 26, 2022 9:16:32 PM(UTC)
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Accounting is a science and forensic by nature.

I watched a lengthy video of a state court trial with experts that were defeated by the common sense of the cardinal textbook Pyle & Larson. The case argued the "forensic" evidence of self serving accounting records proved allegations of a state tax agency were wrong. The other side of the "forensic" evidence was outside records.

The defendant got prison time. Defeated by the elementary science of accounting.

In the case the winning attorney was a CPA. All of that very impressive skill set he summarized so simply for the jury, accounting doesn't change the basic forensic science of math that 1+1=2


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